A mid-pocket pair in EP on a flop with an OC

[britspin]

I feel foolish because I'm sure this is a hand that everyone should know how to play, but I feel annoyed with every line I take here and recently I've been taking inconsistent lines.

I've got SSH on order, but appreciate advice now- Especially if it's "read this thread"!

I'm playing $1/$2 limit, nice passive game, people will call with any face card and cold call raises with any two face cards, It's usually 5 or 6 to an unraised flop, 3 or 4 to a raised flop.

I get say, 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 9 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] anywhere from UTG to UTG+2.

To begin with I would raise, to thin field, but I end up with say 2 callers, a pot of 7.5 SB and a flop like Q [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], and If I bet out, I'll get called by any Q and A's (AJ, A10 will call here in my recent experence).

Of course, there might not be a Q out there, but hard to evaluate that against a flat call. So I have betted out, got called on flop, which leaves me a nasty dilemma on turn, assuming it's a blank.

Typically I've gone into c/call assuming only one caller and c/fold if two callers, but this feels over passive.

If I don't raise Pre-flop, I'm basically accepting I only have a hand if I hit trips or a v. low flop because there's little chance I can bet out into a huge field with an overcard- or is this far too cautious?

In this kind of field, 9-handed, how far back in position do you put youself before raising PF?

What's your line against a multiway- especially if by the time it gets back to you, the pot has got up to 10SB or so for a single bet to you?

[Vaftrudner]

It depends... [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] But normaly bet. /v

[Webster]

I would not raise in EP - I'd try to limp in. Not really sure I WANT to think the field but I DO want to get in cheaply. So I limp and pray knowing I'll end up calling a raise and THEN folding.

As will all medium pockets your hoping to spike the set.
Once that breaks down and there are over cards - your screwed.

I'd raise and Reraise with TT but limp with 99 in EP.

HOWEVER - I play much less in EP and more EP then most players. When I look at average numbers I'm in the 17% VPIP range but I play more Late and less Early then the typical person.

[url=http://www.grinderswarehouse.com]Grinderswarehouse - NOT just another BLOG[/url

99 is tough, 88 and down, Im calling except in great position and hoping to set up. All my pps are very profitable because If they dont set up, I play them passively unless I have a great read. Exception 1010 +, in which in stuffing the pot until I think I may be beat. With the hand mentioned, Im betting until someone lets me know they have a hand, if your going to call a bet, you should be the one betting. (not if the scenario includes a raise!)
gl
cdl

[jrz1972]

On the hand you posted, I raise PF. If I get just a couple of callers, I bet the flop and bet the turn. Then I probably just check-call the river depending on how things develop.

Basically I just keep betting until somebody shows some resistance. Until then, I assume my hand is ahead.

[tiltaholic]

99 is a tricky hand for new players. i can empathize with you there. here are some thoughts.

when we get AA or one of the real powerhouse preflop hands, we don't have to think very hard. and we're happy - our plays are basically trivial. we bet, we raise, we rarely fold. all is good. when we get 33, our play is also fairly easy (at least when learning a simple profitable strategy). we limp, we flop a 3 and then we run with it.

but the hands in the middle? crap. we have to think.

before i get specifically to 99, let me say that when was first learning the game - i took a simple preflop strategy (this was before SSH) for pocket pairs and learned it. i limped pocket pairs. i raised TT and up. i had a similar strategy for non-pair hands, with an arbitrary threshold for raising or limping. for unsuited hands it was limp AJo, raise AQo - suited i raised AJs limped ATs. now this was a profitable preflop strategy and all was ok.

but if you are like me (and like money), of course you'll realize that poker is not a game of absolutes and rules. i wanted to learn to play WELL at low limits, adjust to the games i was playing in and to the players i was playing against -- and OPTIMIZE my winrate. to go from beating the rake, to CRUSHING the game (yes, .5/1, but whatever).

there was this guy ed miller around (and clarkmeister, and joe tall, and others...). they seemed to advocate raising a lot preflop. i couldn't understand it. raising preflop was a little unnerving. i mean, i could understand raising AA, but KQo??? in early position?? i read on. they spoke of "taking control of hands", of "not seeing monsters under the bed", of "betting until you are given a reason to stop", of "not giving bad (ie loose passive) opponents too much credit", and of exploiting the loose passive players as mcuh as possible.

I took their opinions on faith, after all, they seemed to be winning a lot of money- but I didn't really believe them, after all, every book says not to raise AJo in early position....

Then one day I just decided to try it. I raised preflop. I took control of hands. It was scary at first, but it worked. It worked a lot. Not only because people deferred to me after the flop and always folded- but because they often called down with complete GARBAGE.

In your example. Why on earth are you assuming someone has a queen? Because they cold called your preflop raise? Just because YOU have nines and would rather they didn't have a queen, DON'T assume they have the one overcard that happens to fall on the flop! they don't know what you have!!! when you raise preflop, they'll put you on AA, KK, or AK. now that the flop brings a queen, in fact, they're ASSUMING you have a queen! and if not a queen, an overpair! and even if they did have a queen. when you bet that raggedy-ass flop, some of them will fold top pair weak kicker! or even better, they ONLY CALL you when they have you soundly defeated. how cool is that??

don't be a glass half empty kind of guy (or girl)
be a glass half full kind.

literally. do you think 99 will prevail half of the time vs 2 opponents on a Q85 rainbow board? is 50% a good thing or a bad thing?

i'm no poker expert (yet), but in my experience (at loose passive tables) you are ripping a hole in your wallet and dumping money out if you are not raising 99 preflop from any non-blind position in an unraised pot. i know others disagree with me there...and i won't try to convince anyone firmly entrenched in the limp 99 preflop camp. it's up to you to find your own comfort level. but learning to play 99 postflop OOP after a preflop raise only happens when you raise pf in the first place [img]/images/graemlins/smirk.gif[/img]

sorry this turned into a ramble...

oh and i bet the flop and see what the turn brings and who folds. i likely bet the turn as well depending.

[chaz64]

[ QUOTE ]
I bet the flop and bet the turn. Then I probably just check-call the river depending on how things develop.

Basically I just keep betting until somebody shows some resistance. Until then, I assume my hand is ahead.

[/ QUOTE ]

[britspin]

Thanks- this is very helpful- I think I'm halfway there on the mental attitude needed to carry this off. It's the repeatedly firing bullets into passive players that gets to me sometime. I think I need to take into account the times that the more aggro approach
a) gets them to fold and
b) gets them to call with nothing- thus gaining a bet and
c) forces them to make looser calls when I have TPTK or better.

as well as the times when

d)they call with an average made hand.