Flopping strong draws HU against steal

baronzeus · #1 08-07-2005, 03:43 PM

Working on steal protection first hand at table

How's the overall line?

Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (6 max, 6 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is BB with 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
2 folds, CO raises, 2 folds, Hero calls.

Flop: (4.33 SB) K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, CO bets, Hero raises, CO calls.

Turn: (4.16 BB) 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero bets, CO calls.

River: (6.16 BB) J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero bets

Poldi · #2 08-07-2005, 04:29 PM

I play it the same unless he calls down with anything of course.

Catt · #3 08-07-2005, 05:01 PM

I like to just lead the flop a good portion of the time in a hand like this. We have a great draw that we're not folding; he might fold right off to the donk bet; he might raise and smile to himself smugly when he checks through the turn and glories in his free card play. You're very likely to see a river here and you almost certainly have a lot more outs available than he does if this has missed him. By C/Ring, you kinda commit yourself to leading the turn (unless you've been mixing in a good portion of lead flop; C/R turn) when the bet is bigger and your equity has gone down quite considerably with only one card to come.

Subfallen · #4 08-07-2005, 06:07 PM

With your line, he will sometimes drop AQ and AT to the river bet, plus of course QT...I'd probably grit my teeth and give him one last chance to fold.

Alternative line is to c/c the flop, c/r the turn. I do this fairly often when defending because (1) it has decent fold equity against A-high and (2) it makes people much more uncomfortable firing the second barrel against you. That means free cards. (On the other hand, when you get 3-bet it really, really sucks.)

But raise the turn with a draw and river it, and people TILT. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] Hero: "I kn3w I wuld H1T!1 PAtt3rm naPpers R0CK0RZ!! SH1P iT!!111" ++EV.

auntieklava · #5 08-07-2005, 06:24 PM

Your line is in my opinion the best line. Against some opponents i would c/c flop/turn and fold river unimproved. Against many of those players i would also bet the river every time they check the turn (except when the river is an A).

I think checkraising the turn with draws is an expensive play in the long run unless you have a very good read and image against a certain opponent. This is especially true on a KJ board against an openraiser.

goofball · #6 08-07-2005, 06:39 PM

If nothing else it sends the message not to fcuk with your blinds unless prepared to fight the whole way for the pot. This has a much bigger effect in live games, but it has value here too.

aK13 · #7 08-07-2005, 08:03 PM

Call me crazy, but I like bet/3bet, bet line. I think you have a better chance of folding A high hands.

Argus · #8 08-07-2005, 08:13 PM

<blockquote>En réponse à:<hr />
Alternative line is to c/c the flop, c/r the turn. I do this fairly often when defending because (1) it has decent fold equity against A-high and (2) it makes people much more uncomfortable firing the second barrel against you. That means free cards. (On the other hand, when you get 3-bet it really, really sucks.)

[/ QUOTE ]
I've been toying with using this line more often, but I'm worried that it's just spewing rather than an effective way to win a pot. Can you post a hand (or a couple) where you think this is clearly the best line? Or at least a strong line to consider when mixing your play up? Finally, would you say this is an appropriate use of sklansky's suggestion to frequently check/raise the turn? Thanks.

Catt · #9 08-07-2005, 08:43 PM

I'm a little surprised that everyone likes this as a default line.

Against a reasonable (IMHO) stealing range we're in good equity shape on the flop -- it's close. As such, I don't mind putting multiple bets in here. If I take the flop C/R line, I actually prefer that I get three-bet there since the equity situation is decent and it provides a "cover" for checking the turn. We're OOP, and a C/R on the flop followed by a check on the turn looks suspicious to most players -- it could be suspicious to Villain because you're going for another C/R on the turn or because it looks like a "move" or a draw. And if we don't lead the turn, we lose most if not all of the fold equity we bought with our flop raise.

The nature of our holding indicates: (1) we don't mind getting wild on the flop; and (2) we want to see the river as cheaply as possible when we miss the turn. Our equity changes dramatically flop to turn. The only real reason we want to be leading the turn is for fold equity -- and the amount of our fold equity is speculative at best, especially against a total unknown at whose table we just sat down. The fold equity benefit of the turn lead is offset by the risk that Villain smooth-called the flop and pops the turn -- we really, really, want to avoid putting in 2 bets on the turn, because we can't fold but we have a real equity disadvantage.

If we were in position, with our holding I'd likely be putting in the last bet on the flop (a three-bet if I am ck-raised and a cap if Villain led and 3-bet). OOP, I think there is a real advantage to not having the lead on the turn. As a middle ground to these competing interests (fold equity vs. positional optics / "normal" betting patterns) I prefer a flop lead -- we have some fold equity on the flop itself and preserve our "passive" posture on the turn unless the guy just calls the flop. The worst outcome is that he calls the flop and pops the turn which is an unhappy experience but less unhappy than C/R flop and getting popped on the turn. The best is that we spend our fold equity when he calls the flop and folds the turn, or raises the flop and checks the turn. Even in the worst situation, we're putting in less bets with an equity disadvantage when Villain is inclined to pop the turn, and in the best situation we're seeing the river for 2 BBs, which we're putting in anyway in the default line.

It just seems to me that we are placing an awful lot of value on fold equity that we would likely have anyway by leading the flop and leading the turn, and we're getting to the river as cheaply or cheaper. Comments?

bobbyi · #10 08-07-2005, 08:49 PM

Against a generic opponent, I play all streets the same.