REVIEW: Hands 114 K Q & 115 K J (They are related)

[GrunchCan]

HAND 114 :
Preflop: Hero is UTG+1 with K, J.
1 fold, Hero folds

HAND 115 :
Preflop: Hero is UTG with K, Q.
Hero raises, UTG+1 calls, 4 folds, SB calls, BB calls.

I can't help but point out the obvious here. Why such a bright line between these two hands? I don't wanna hear no kool-aid, either. I want a real reason. I can see a huge difference between say K9o and K8o: K9o has 1 additional way to win.

Convince me to not raise KJo in UTG+1 while at the same time I should raise KQo.

[MrWookie47]

KQ can be dominated only by AK and AQ. KJ can be dominated by AK, KQ, and AJ - 50% more hands.

That said, I sometimes raise KJo in EP.

[GrunchCan]

[ QUOTE ]
KQ can be dominated only by AK and AQ. KJ can be dominated by AK, KQ, and AJ - 50% more hands.

That said, I sometimes raise KJo in EP.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is true, but it's still very few hands that we are dominated by. Also, if the opponent has a hand strong enought to dominate KJ, this will usually become apparent postflop. I believe a skilled Hero can outplay his opponents often enough to make raising with just about any 2 broadway cards more +EV than just limping. Agree/disagree?

[Rev. Good Will]

you gotta trust your pattern mapper man

in all seriousness, I agree on that, I couldn't find it(furthest back the search function is going is my response to the bankroll post [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]), but one of my first hand posts involved me limping, and I got abesolutely FLAMED by everyone, scarring me from ever limping that in EP ever again...

[MrWookie47]

Also, KQ fears an A on the flop. KJ fears A's, and Q's whenever there isn't a K. A pair of J's is less likely to win than a pair of K's.

I don't think raising any two broadways can be profitable. I think JTo and QTo are just too weak to be profitable in EP. KTo might just be profitable, and I think all the others could conceivably be profitable with a skilled hero.

[slavic]

Think of KJo, what hands call when you raise? How do they play versus KJo? What you do by raising is stop the hands you want to play from playing and the hands that call you don't do so well against.

Now with that said KJo UTG and UTG+1 I tend to muck.

[GrunchCan]

Right. Remember, I said 'just about'. I agree JTo and QJo are much weaker, becasue they have less TP strength than A or K high. I guess what I'm saying is any A-b or K-b hand should be playable here (b=broadway).

[slavic]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
KQ can be dominated only by AK and AQ. KJ can be dominated by AK, KQ, and AJ - 50% more hands.

That said, I sometimes raise KJo in EP.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is true, but it's still very few hands that we are dominated by. Also, if the opponent has a hand strong enought to dominate KJ, this will usually become apparent postflop. I believe a skilled Hero can outplay his opponents often enough to make raising with just about any 2 broadway cards more +EV than just limping. Agree/disagree?

[/ QUOTE ]

I disagree. KJ benefits from people playing KT,K9,... QJ, JT, .... you get the idea. How od you make money from those players if you raise them out. Now switch this around, your in LP and a few people limp who are "loose" ok now you can make an argument for a raise. Playing any two broadway cards in EP and especially playing any two broadway and raise is a leak.

I'm not sure if pokerroom still has their hand stats but go look at how offsuit broadway hands fair in ep.

[slavic]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
KQ can be dominated only by AK and AQ. KJ can be dominated by AK, KQ, and AJ - 50% more hands.

That said, I sometimes raise KJo in EP.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is true, but it's still very few hands that we are dominated by. Also, if the opponent has a hand strong enought to dominate KJ, this will usually become apparent postflop. I believe a skilled Hero can outplay his opponents often enough to make raising with just about any 2 broadway cards more +EV than just limping. Agree/disagree?

[/ QUOTE ]

I disagree. KJ benefits from people playing KT,K9,... QJ, JT, .... you get the idea. How od you make money from those players if you raise them out. Now switch this around, your in LP and a few people limp who are "loose" ok now you can make an argument for a raise. Playing any two broadway cards in EP and especially playing any two broadway and raise is a leak.

I'm not sure if pokerroom still has their hand stats but go look at how offsuit broadway hands fair in ep.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ahh we are in luck here is KJo in all positions.

KJ -0.08 -0.17 -0.03 -0.02 -0.03 -0.04 0.05 0.01 0.09 0.06

As you can see it loses money until MLP.

[MrWookie47]

Those Pokerroom stats, though, are for the average poker room donk. In the hands of a skilled player, I'm pretty sure he can make KJ and AT profitable. KTo though is a pretty big question mark for me. I could seeing it being just barely profitable, or I could see it being slightly more unprofitable.