Random thoughts about going super pro (long)

[sirio11]

Well, as some of you already know, I have 2 jobs, my main job is to play poker, basically tournaments with a $100 or higher buy in and sometimes to play some 30-60 holdem. My 2nd and "official" job, is a full time lecturer position at UTEP, teaching 4 classes a week, this is 12 hours.

I have been playing poker now for 8 years, with a little recess between 2001-2002 to finish my masters degree; and I have always had a winning year. The last 2 years I started to play in the internet and things only got better. This last spring semester, I was really tired doing both jobs, and I thought maybe it was time to make a decision. I decided that if I have a successful WSOP, then the decision should be clear, leave the teaching position and dedicate full time to poker. Well, I had a successfull WSOP, but still the decision is really hard. I have an appointment next week with the head of the Math Department at UTEP, and my thoughts right now are all about telling him I'm not coming back for the Fall semester. But damm, it is hard ...

Lets see, economically, I won about 3 more times a year playing poker than teaching, if I had more time to play poker, odds are I'm winning more money; but this could change in the future. The present is like the golden era of poker.

Professionally, I have developed successful carrers teaching and playing poker, but it is clear than I'm closer to a world class status playing poker than teaching. But then, your contribution to society is way more important teaching than playing poker.

Family: I have a very supportive wife, and she's ok if I decide to leave the teaching job and just play poker; some things are going to be difficult if I decide to travel the tournament circuit but we can work them on. In the present I have 2 sons, 2 years and 4 months old. I feel that I can spend more time with them as a poker player, but I don't know what is going to be the impact in their lifes for them to have a father that is a poker pro, or a father that is an University professor.

General hapiness: In this days, I love to play poker, and I like to teach, I used to love teaching, but it is more and more difficult for me to enjoy teaching classes like Math for Social Sciences where most of the students don't want to be there. And with poker, well, all is up to you; if you want to play, you play, if you don't, you don't; and there is always happy people willing to play with you

Stability: The variance in the poker world is a bitch as you know, with the teaching position, you have a security, you have always a positive check payment at the end of the month, with poker, sometimes your monthly payments are negative, and not only you, but your family have to deal with it.

The future: Right now I consider myself a pro poker player, but I want to go super pro, this is, playing full time and traveling to play in the most important tournaments in the world, this means a higher variance and a greater risk of ruin. I think I have the bankroll to do it, I even consider to sell a percentage of my action for all the WPT events, so I can minimize the variance, I think this is a great time for poker and maybe this is not forever, so, I need to take advantage now, but again, my conservative nature tell me to proceed cautiosly, as I have always done; I have never been broke as a poker player, ever!, and right now with a family it would not be a good time to know what it is like.
And also, what is going to be life in 10 years?, playing poker day after day, Am I going to miss teaching? Doing something productive?

Well, I posted this in OOT, but wanted to post it here also, since I think this is the forum I belong to; I hope you can help me out with some comments, from the very experienced people in life, because of the years, or because the life you have lived, from some of you that know what is like to be a pro for many, many years as well as from the really clever young guys in this forum, some of who, even if don't have the experience, have the cleverness to anticipate thing in the future.

Regards

David

[MicroBob]

[ QUOTE ]
I have 2 sons, 2 years and 4 months old. I feel that I can spend more time with them as a poker player

[/ QUOTE ]


End of debate.

I think you should do it...but maybe don't go on quite so many trips as you might be planning.
Better for your variance...and you get to spend more time with the family.

Obviously you can make a decent living from home too.


You can probably get your teaching job back in a year or two if you want to.


I think PokerBob used to be a teacher too.

[dirty moose]

I delt cards for a few weeks @ my local club, everynight i delt i pulled it 350-400 bucks a night. i looked at ym UPS paycheck, it said something like 15 bucks for a 25 hour week. Now i just made 400 bucks in one night working 10 hrs or so, how can i not quit UPS. Job stability, UPS is never going anywhere, if i wanted to stay with UPS as a life job its no problem.

I thought about this decision for the night and figured, do i want to deal card forever (or play in both our cases) of curse it nice right now, but will it always be this juicy? will poker be here in a few years, theres no stability, no health benifits none of the stuff that a Teaching job offeres.

You said its only 12 hours a week, i think you can work around the 12 hours to play, you have been doing it for 8 years why change it now? Yours two sons will thank you if you go broke one day but held on to a job with medical benfits. At 12 hours a week i think you should stick with teaching and playing.

Good luck with your decison.

-moose

[morello]

Some things you should consider:

Quitting your job will likely NOT lead to an increase in hours of poker played, and may even lead to a decrease! Be careful about projecting potential earnings in this way. The extra free time will now be eaten up by other distractions (or, in a lot of cases it will be , obviously we don't know your entire personality/work habits). An exception to this might be the fact that you can now travel to big tournaments that you otherwise couldn't. In terms of online poker though, I doubt your hours increase much.

Secondly, are you really working for 12 hours a week? Or is there a lot of other "hidden" time, such as preparing lectures, grading, etc. If the true time committment is 12 hours a week, I can't understand why you would quit your job. Don't you have more than enough time for poker already? It's not like the games are especially good at 9am on a Wednesday. Also, do you have summers off, or are you teaching year-round? If you have summers off, you already have one third of the year to be a Super Pro. That's not enough?

Thirdly, a teacher is viewed as a "legitimate" member of society. Someone who contributes to the world. It might not matter to you what a stranger thinks, but do you think you are a better role model to your children as a poker player, or a teacher? People will probably jump on me for asking that question, but it is a valid one to ask.

You haven't mentioned anything about the options available to you if you decide to return to teaching later in life. Would it be relatively easy to return? Would you be able to receive the same compensation? Would your employer allow you to try poker for a year, with the option of returning if you want?


With all that being said, you should probably give it a try if you honestly think that your life will be more productive, and the hours you currently spend teaching will end up being utilized efficiently AND that you have will have a suitable contingency plan.

FWIW, I had to ask myself some of the same questions when I decided whether or not to stay in school. I make a good amount of money playing, and constantly have friends ask me 'well why are you even bothering with school?' The answer for me personally, is that I would not play much more often if I dropped out. Couple that with the fact that an education can allow me to pursue other options later in life if I choose to, and it was an easy decision.

Good luck whatever you choose.

[Sluss]

I think you should look at what you enjoy doing the most. I know you love doing both. However, once poker changes from being a fun (and very profitable) side job to a daily grind will you continue to love the game as much as you still love your "real job" as a math professor.

Right now is the best time to go "super pro." The tournaments are as big as they will ever be. The side action is as juicy as it ever will be. With your skill, ability and a little luck you could set yourself for a long time.

You can always return to teaching. Just be sure your ready to give up your "hobby" and make it your job.

[USCSigma1097]

One of the biggest things that you need to consider is this:

Poker is not viewed by society as a "real" job. Regardless of its current successes, I would still venture to guess that a majority of the people in executive positions in the United States, as well as an overwhelming majority of academia view poker as a less than honorable profession.

Thus, a major problem for someone in your postion is the "hole" in your resume that taking time off is going to create for you. You, along with others, are saying that you can always go back to teaching if this doesn't work out. How accurate is that statement? If you tell your department chair that you are quitting your job to gamble for a living, how willing are they going to be to hire you back...or give you a reccomendation for someplace else?

Right now you say you make X number of dollars teaching and 3X playing poker. Keep your 4X and buy your wife something nice. You won't make more money playing poker if you leave your job, because you won't put in more hours. If anything, you play as much as you do now because it is an escape from your job. Have you considered the psychological changes that are going to take place once it is your primary income. All of a sudden the money you lose when your aces get cracked is not your bankroll, but your groceries.

As a man with a family, do the responsible thing and keep your job. A man does what he wants to do until he does the things he has to do. You have the fortune to balance both at the same time. Don't mess that up.

Sigma

[billyjex]

I think you should go for it -- take a year off, try the life. You are at the top of the game and have a great oppurtunity to play a game you love as your profession -- and MicroBob makes a very good point as well.

Good luck in whatever you choose.

[Stipe_fan]

David,

I am hearing that most ppl perceive poker players careers as not a legitimate occupation. Since you are a teacher which is one of the most respected fields, does this bother you?

Another consideration, is the ability to get another job if you decided to return to teaching. You definitely need a back up plan if the game dries up and gets difficult. Eventually, the easy money will not be there. I know there are some ppl that are very successful like Ivey, Negreneau, Lindgren but if you are not in the elite status, the going could be rough.

I also feel that spending more time with the family is a big consideration. I am a little surprised that you could spend more time with family when you are travelling the poker circuit. But, if this in fact is true, then that makes your decision easier.

Therefore if you and your family can handle the poker player stigma and you can return to your job as a university lecturer and you can spend more time with the family then I feel the decision is easy. I think you should turn professional. Is there anyway the university will grant you a year sabbatical from teaching? That would definitely make your decision easier.

Good luck in your decision and future endeavours and keep on posting on 2+2!!

Mack

[MeanGreenTT]

[ QUOTE ]
You said its only 12 hours a week, i think you can work around the 12 hours to play, you have been doing it for 8 years why change it now?

[/ QUOTE ]

I'd have to agree here, my 1st thoughts exactly....I've been a Corporate Instructor/Developer for the past 10 years and love the work, HATE the travel and the limitations it puts on my play, albeit I'm NOWHERE near your level of play!

I value things like health insurance, stocks/options, 401ks, etc too much right now to attempt full time play, instead, I set goals for money that I could earn on the "side" and double dip as much as possible when not in front of a class, and "working from home" [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Good luck with your decision, hope they fall even for ya!

[ QUOTE ]
I hope you can help me out with some comments, from the very experienced people in life, because of the years, or because the life you have lived

[/ QUOTE ]

I think the important thing is to view it as a job and a business. To prosper in a job, you not only have to do the day to day operations, but you also have to grow and imporve. To prosper in a business, you not only have to generate enough revenue to stay afloat, but you also have to make sufficient profit to reinvest (e.g., move up in limits, profit sharing, or put away for a rainy day), and stay ahead of the competition.

These are admittedly pretty generic and far easier to say than do.

I think you also have to look at things in terms of a worst case scenario. For teaching the worst thing would be that you invest several years trying to get tenure and then if tenure is turned down, you are stuck and may even be terminated like any other job. What do you do then? You have to have enough cash reserves to get by for the next 6-12 months or longer, until you get to that next assignment.

The same goes for poker. What is your worst case scenario? What do you do if you get mired in a -2sd swing that lasts for 6 months, a year, or longer? Do you have enough reserves to continue to support your family? Would your wife an family be able to cope with those kinds of financial swings?

When someone goes into business, isn't it typical to have 6-12 months of operating capital on the side to account for revenue slumps and other kinds of downturns? So the same would be true for your poker business. Completely separate from your playing bank, would have to be the equivalent of about 12-18 months "pay" for you to be able to support your family.

If you go into the poker business, then IMHO what you might want to do is something like this:
- Incorporate yourself and put yourself on a salary. That could be whatever you need to live, save a bit, pay the bills,etc., such as 1500 a week.
- Maybe you make your wife and child shareholders in the corporation.
- Then if it turns out that your corporation is generating in excess of $1500 a week in revenue, which hopefully it would be, then you put this money away (such as invest in a profit sharing plan, or some tax deferred savings plan). You also put a little aside for re-investing in yourself, maybe something like $5000 a year for a trip to Vegas and a paid consultation with a top expert like a Sklansky (or whomever).
- Then you also keep receipts for everything, bus fare, gas, whatever you spend money on for your business. You keep an accounting ledger of all your sessions, win or lose, your tournament entries and prize money, etc. IN other words, you do business accounting just like any other business.

IMHO, these would be basic common sense considerations. If you couldn't or wouldn't be prepared to handle these, then perhaps teaching full time and playing part time is a better thing.

I would concur that this is probably a pretty conservative approach, but getting set up in a new business, I would think one would want to be fairly conservative.

Just some random thoughts. Hope it helps.