I'm I too weak/tight? J/J

Delzek15 · #1 08-05-2005, 02:28 AM

It had been a terrible session thus far and I just knew that my jacks couldn't of been good... How weak tight is it of me to lay them down here??

Absolute Poker 2/4 Hold'em (9 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is SB with J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
3 folds, MP2 calls, 2 folds, Button raises, Hero 3-bets, 1 fold, MP2 calls, Button caps, Hero calls, MP2 calls.

Flop: (13 SB) 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (3 players)
Hero checks, MP2 bets, Button raises, Hero folds, MP2 calls.

Turn: (8.50 BB) 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
MP2 bets, Button raises, MP2 calls.

River: (12.50 BB) 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
MP2 bets, Button calls.

Final Pot: 14.50 BB

Doc7 · #2 08-05-2005, 02:30 AM

AA, AK, AQ, TT, etc, are all ahead of you right now and very possible given that pre-flop action. I'm not sure it's weak-tight per se to fold here with a bet/raise in front of you, though I'm sure there's a few guys out there calling this down...

TomBrooks · #3 08-05-2005, 02:41 AM

Fold is good.

The only way I see you ahead is if MP bet with a middle pair T to see where he was at and Button raised with K [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] Q [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] flush draw and Royal gutshot.

I think the chances someone has an Ace are about 85+%.

Edit: Read rest of hand. MP betting out on turn confirms your fold was correct. If he doesn't have an Ace or better here, he is DonkTastic and you will likely collect a bunch from him in future hands if you get some Top Pair or better hands against him.

Harv72b · #4 08-05-2005, 03:37 AM

I fold this flop for 2 bets nearly always. If I know the Button is an idiot, I 3-bet.

If Button has anything near a normal preflop capping range, you're drawing to two potentially dirty "outs" after this flop.

kapw7 · #5 08-05-2005, 03:57 AM

I am calling this. We have the backdoor draws as well and implied odds given the action.

#6 08-05-2005, 04:23 AM

On the flop there is action on a A-high board from both MP2 and the button, so I think you're not good here. I'd fold.

Dopey · #7 08-05-2005, 04:29 AM

Wow, your really calling this????

Your getting 8-1 on the call and any outs you have are marginal at best. I also no way believe you are ahead after the flop more than 10% of the time.

Your backdoor straight is probably live but slightly devalued by possibility of either opponent having 2 hearts.

backdoor flush has some but little value because of possibility of one of the two opponents having a higher heart.

Set draw = 2 outs maybe (slightly reduced because J can complete a straight) useless against AA in which case your set is no good.

Even if you counting all your outs as clean (which I don't think they are, they all need to be devalued slightly) you have 5 outs, making this borderline. Implied odds just don't make up for it especially give you don't close the action.

Sure at this limit the hand ranges are huge but take a small range and you will see why I don't like your backdoor draws and a J doesn't help if PFR has AA.

Possible hand ranges for PFR - AA, KK, KK w/ K [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], QQ, QQ w/ Q [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], AK, AK w/ K [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], AQ, AQ w/ Q [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], AJ (takes one of your outs and creates a re-draw if you hit your set), JJ, TT, AT

Against that hand range alot of your backdoor draws lose value.

Add-in what kind of hands MP2 would be calling the 3-bet preflop with and betting the flop: Any Ace, any two pair hand, any set but also a ton of possible draws - KQ, J9, 97, QJ, 2 hearts. Once again against this range many of your draws could get there and still not be good.

Now I ask again, why are you calling? Please explain further because maybe I am missing something or maybe im too weak/tight.

Dopey [img]/images/graemlins/smirk.gif[/img]

benneh · #8 08-05-2005, 04:37 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I am calling this. We have the backdoor draws as well and implied odds given the action.

[/ QUOTE ]

1 out for the BDS, none for the flush, and 2 outs for the jack

no way should he call this. stop looking for excuses togive money away. fold.

JerseyTom · #9 08-05-2005, 04:56 AM

Flop fold is good.

Calling this is a major leak.

Tom

imported_CaseClosed326 · #10 08-05-2005, 05:34 AM

Standard fold. Your backdoor outs are as dirty as it gets. No point to go on with this hand.