Slowplaying the boat HU...

[Harv72b]

Background & reads: Found a 2/4 table that was just too good to resist. It's gone a little bit downhill, but there are still two spectacularly bad players seated (MP2 & SB in this hand).

MP2 loves to call raises. Preflop, postflop, on the river--you name it. I swear that he folds more often preflop when the pot isn't raised than when it is. About an orbit previous to this hand he had called 2 cold twice preflop, and then again on the flop, in order to bust my AK with K8o (he caught the 8 on the turn). Him calling 3 cold means that he wasn't physically dragged away from his computer before he could click "call"--that's what I'm saying.

UTG is almost the polar opposite. He has been incredibly tight & conservative over about 50 hands at this table (which had mostly been loose/passive). He's running 13/5.5/1 over that period. He has also seen me 3-bet an UTG raise with AQo during this session (although the initial PFR there was far looser/more aggressive).

My table image is TAG. I've shown down nothing but premium hands after raising preflop and haven't tried any of my usual kooky turn bluffs.

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (9 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is UTG+1 with A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
<font color="#CC3333">UTG raises</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero 3-bets</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, MP2 calls, <font color="#666666">5 folds</font>, UTG calls.

Flop: (10.50 SB) 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
UTG checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, MP2 folds, UTG calls.

Turn: (6.25 BB) 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
UTG checks, Hero checks....

Textbook?

NOTE: I bet the flop because it was expected of me, and both opponents knew that I would bet it with any hand I 3-bet with after it's checked to me. I fully expected MP2 to call the bet and UTG to then either fold or c/r, so I was very suprised when the action went down like it did.

[HolyBejeesus]

Since UTG is tight, you can give him credit for a hand and keep betting. Checking behind on the turn is bad on this card because if he has two clubs, he is going to check-raise you, and you get to 3bet him. Also, a big club will call your turn bet, and AQ/AK probably aren't going anywhere.

[Nick C]

[ QUOTE ]
MP2 loves to call raises. Preflop, postflop, on the river--you name it. I swear that he folds more often preflop when the pot isn't raised than when it is.

[/ QUOTE ]

I've run into some players like this, especially when playing live. There are some people who are attracted to preflop action and big pots.

[ QUOTE ]
Turn: (6.25 BB) 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
UTG checks, Hero checks....

Textbook?

[/ QUOTE ]

Um, maybe. I think I would have bet again, though.

UTG did find some reason to call the flop. Maybe he wants to checkraise now, or maybe he's planning to call down with his AJ. (You may get to raise the river versus that and get called anyway, though.)

Also, if he has, say, Q [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] Q [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], I don't think he's folding.

I will admit, however, that if UTG has something like J [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] J [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], he might decide to give up, if you bet the turn, and you might gain a bet on the river when he check-calls or bet-folds. (Maybe he'll even bet-call.)

But I think I'd go for some turn action, hoping to get checkraised.

[chief444]

Harv,

I'm not really sure on this one...I like the play in general...but here I think after he calls the flop he's paying off to the river with something. And if he has two clubs this play may cost you 2 bets. Although there are only 1-2 club combinations that he could have. But with an AJ-AK you're winning 2 bets anyway. I guess my biggest issue is after he calls the A92 two-toned flop it seems unlikely to me that he'd check/fold the turn HU.

Chief

[Harv72b]

My thinking on checking through the turn...

UTG's check/call on the flop could mean any number of hands, especially when it becomes HU. He could have flopped a flush draw with KQ/KJ, he could be holding a hand like AQ or possibly AJs (I don't think he raises UTG with AJo, but the sample size is too small to say for sure), or he could be taking a card off with an underpair (likely QQ-TT) to see what I do on the turn.

When the flush card came on the turn, I determined that if I bet he was folding an underpair without a club about 100% of the time. He was calling with a single club, and probably check/calling UI on the river as well. He was check/raising with a made flush, but when I 3-bet on the paired board he might get scared into calling down. He was probably check/calling with the case ace.

If I checked through, I felt that he would bet a blank river pretty often with an underpair/no flush, and possibly call a raise. He would lead the river almost every time if he caught a 1-card flush there, and probably call a raise with the K or Q, maybe J. He would lead a blank river 100% of the time with the case A and probably call a raise. And he would probably lead/3-bet with the K-high flush, and then call the cap. There was also the outside chance that he catches a 2-outer on the river and goes 4 bets after that.

We all know that I suck at math, so I'll let someone else figure out the exact equity of checking vs. betting based on all of my assumptions. Or not. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img] It felt right to check at the time, anyway.

Either way, it's late &amp; I have to work the real job in the morning. [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

[molawn2mo]

Harv:

Given your read I think you played this optimally unless villain begins with, specifically, K [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]Q [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].

Because it seems far more likely that villains holds a PP, a PP that hopefully contains a [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], I think it prudent to allow him to catch up (with a rivered club). Even if the club does not come, he may read your turn check behind as weak, maybe on a club draw yourself, and he may lead the river.

In any event, this villain is unlikely to go to war on the turn and the river, both, so my gut says try and go to war on 1 street and he will need to catch up in most warring scenarios.

Well played.

[Nick C]

[ QUOTE ]
My thinking on checking through the turn...

UTG's check/call on the flop could mean any number of hands, especially when it becomes HU. He could have flopped a flush draw with KQ/KJ, he could be holding a hand like AQ or possibly AJs (I don't think he raises UTG with AJo, but the sample size is too small to say for sure), or he could be taking a card off with an underpair (likely QQ-TT) to see what I do on the turn.

When the flush card came on the turn, I determined that if I bet he was folding an underpair without a club about 100% of the time. He was calling with a single club, and probably check/calling UI on the river as well. He was check/raising with a made flush, but when I 3-bet on the paired board he might get scared into calling down. He was probably check/calling with the case ace.

If I checked through, I felt that he would bet a blank river pretty often with an underpair/no flush, and possibly call a raise. He would lead the river almost every time if he caught a 1-card flush there, and probably call a raise with the K or Q, maybe J. He would lead a blank river 100% of the time with the case A and probably call a raise. And he would probably lead/3-bet with the K-high flush, and then call the cap. There was also the outside chance that he catches a 2-outer on the river and goes 4 bets after that.

We all know that I suck at math, so I'll let someone else figure out the exact equity of checking vs. betting based on all of my assumptions. Or not. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img] It felt right to check at the time, anyway.

Either way, it's late &amp; I have to work the real job in the morning. [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

You and Molawn2mo have made a good case for the turn check. I think Molawn2mo is correct when he says that UTG probably won't put a lot of bets in on both big streets anyway.

I'm now thinking the decision is close and that, a good chunk of the time, it won't matter that much which line you take.

Versus a made flush, I think you'd be better off betting now. Versus a clubless pocket pair, I think checking is preferable. Versus a pocket pair with a club, I think it's slightly better to bet, though there is the possibility that Villain will just check-fold the river if he doesn't improve, whereas he might have bet-called it if you checked the turn through. Versus a hand like AQ, I don't think your turn decision matters much. Betting now could possibly gain something if UTG's kicker is a club, though, and he improves on the river.

Hmm. I don't know.

During my most recent sessions, I've been catching a lot of big hands, and I've been getting played back at when I had those hands. This surprised me at first, but now I'm beginning to expect it (though I know it won't last).

Anyway, my recent good run may have influenced what I wrote originally.

[Entity]

Honestly, I think it sucks. He's calling the turn and folding the river UI a lot more often than you're earning extra bet from him by checking the turn.

Rob

[Paxosmotic]

I don't see what Villain is going to hit that he's going to call a raise with on the river. You'll get 1BB there but could easily get more by betting the turn. I don't know about all that checking nonsense, I likes me a bet.

[mikeyvegas]

[ QUOTE ]
Honestly, I think it sucks. He's calling the turn and folding the river UI a lot more often than you're earning extra bet from him by checking the turn.

Rob

[/ QUOTE ]

I concur.