Reraising with Jacks: Two players call, One Queen flops, my head hurts

NYCNative · #1 07-31-2005, 09:04 AM

Too aggressive with a notorious problem hand PF and with an overcard on the flop and two villains? Checking it down on the river weak? I like and hate this hand... Like it that I kept the pot controlled, hate it because I kinda have to...

Ultimate Bet No-Limit Hold'em, $1 BB (9 handed) converter

MP2 ($117.90)
MP3 ($99)
CO ($102.45)
Button ($39.25)
SB ($106.25)
BB ($92.10)
UTG ($101.75)
UTG+1 ($154)
Hero ($351.55)

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
UTG raises to $2, UTG+1 calls $2, Hero raises to $7, 6 folds, UTG calls $5, UTG+1 calls $5.

Flop: ($22.50) 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (3 players)
UTG checks, UTG+1 checks, Hero bets $15, UTG calls $15, UTG+1 folds.

Turn: ($52.50) 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
UTG checks, Hero checks.

River: ($52.50) 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
UTG checks, Hero checks.

Final Pot: $52.50

-Skeme- · #2 07-31-2005, 09:18 AM

I think checking down after is fine. You're not folding out anything better with more bets. You're pretty much done with the hand after the flop. And I'd raise more pre.

gulebjorn · #3 07-31-2005, 09:23 AM

Wow, I would play this hand completely different than you guys. Which probably means I'm wrong [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

I wouldn't re-raise PF with jacks.

I would bet less on the flop.

I would value bet the river.

Thoughts?

NYCNative · #4 07-31-2005, 09:30 AM

I don't know of there is a right or wrong with this as much as playiong within your comfort zone and in a manner that makes sens eat this level and table in particular.

That said, I reraised with Jacks here for two reasons:

1) I wanted to define my hand as a premium hand (which Jacks are even though they can be problematic) right off the bat. If the raiser had KK, QQ or AA, I wanted to give them a chance to reraise me and get me off my hand before I get married to them on a 10-or-lower rainbow flop.

2) I wanted to limit the competition and a minraise wouldn't do that. I know that people with marginal hands would call the bet before the flop and Jacks are hard enough to play without having a family pot.

There are some people who would play Jacks for set value only, people who would bail with a flop that didn't provide one no matter how friendly. I'm not one of them, although I do have to play smarter when i have them. That's why I post here...

-Skeme- · #5 07-31-2005, 09:52 AM

I wouldn't reraise with Jacks either. I would probably bet the same amount there with nothing or a monster. What do you think calls you on the river that you're beating?

NYCNative · #6 07-31-2005, 09:57 AM

[ QUOTE ]
What do you think calls you on the river that you're beating?

[/ QUOTE ]Pocket Tens or Nines will probably call a value bet and be behind.

gulebjorn · #7 07-31-2005, 10:00 AM

[ QUOTE ]
What do you think calls you on the river that you're beating?

[/ QUOTE ]
Well, first of all, I'm pretty sure they don't have Jacks beaten. So I'm not worried about a c/r or a call. I think the betting in this hand makes it obvious. You agree so far?

Second, I wouldn't bet more than 10$ here. I think A8, 99 or TT would call this. Hell, AK might even call this if they think you're trying to buy it.

webmonarch · #8 07-31-2005, 10:10 AM

Yeah, count me as one who doesn't typically re-raise with JJ either, but I don't mind it if you go HUGE. I mean, really try to win the pot there. If he stays with you or reraises then you know to release almost immediately on the flop.

#9 07-31-2005, 10:18 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
What do you think calls you on the river that you're beating?

[/ QUOTE ]
Well, first of all, I'm pretty sure they don't have Jacks beaten. So I'm not worried about a c/r or a call. I think the betting in this hand makes it obvious. You agree so far?

Second, I wouldn't bet more than 10$ here. I think A8, 99 or TT would call this. Hell, AK might even call this if they think you're trying to buy it.

[/ QUOTE ]

I also think jacks are most likely good here. The problem I have with betting the river is that in reopens the action and gives the Villain a chance to push you off what is likely the best hand. Your play makes your hand look weak, which it is considering the Q on board. He may very well have something like A-K or 10-10 and decide that your hand is to weak too withstand uch pressure, which it is. If he's tricky, he'll reraise you and it's tough to call there. I like the idea of just checking the river.

-Skeme- · #10 07-31-2005, 10:18 AM

[ QUOTE ]
You agree so far?

[/ QUOTE ]

No. The "betting" in this hand, on this particular flop, is synonymous with a Queen and less likely a missed, lower PP. You reraised a raiser and a caller preflop, bet a sizeable amount on a flop with TWO players in it, and he still called. I think I decide that a Queen is more likely than Tens or Nines and check behind.

Unless Villain is very noticeably an idiot, which he apparently isn't as no read has been listed, I don't bet river. I wait til I see him call down with underpairs before I value bet here.