A quote by Nate tha' Great about checking behind on the turn

[cartman]

I read this post by Nate tha' Great in the archives. In it he says:

"I hate betting and folding to a raise when I can get to a guaranteed showdown for the same amount."


I have been feeling very much the same way and I have begun checking behind quite a bit heads up on the turn when:

1) I have showdown value
2) I think my opponent is capable of checkraising with something worse than I have (including when he has a draw)
3) My hand is weak enough that I don't want to call a checkraise and a river bet
4) My opponent will often bet the river with a hand worse than mine if I check behind him heads up on the turn


I am concerned, however that in blind steal situations when I am heads up with a loose BB I am missing too much value on rag boards with Ace high when he would have called a turn bet with weak overcard(s) or a gutshot but doesn't always bet the river with them. It feels like this is a worthwhile sacrifice against loose aggressive opponents, but I don't know.

1)What do you guys think in general?

2)Should I just bet with my middle pair type hands and just call him down aggressive opponents instead of checking behind on the turn?

Thanks,
Cartman

[Jgents]

[ QUOTE ]

2)Should I just bet with my middle pair type hands and just call him down aggressive opponents instead of checking behind on the turn?


[/ QUOTE ]

Absolutely. In a Blinds battle, or any HU battle for that matter, treat middle pair as top pair. Check the turn only to Check raise. If you're gonna check/call, check/call only the river depending on the board, the action, and your opponents tendencies. Giving free cards HU when you have a made hand, especially middle pair is so very bad.

There are of course situations when c/c all the way out-of-postion is entirely appropriate, but SOP should be to bet for value.

[Danenania]

It's likely that you are overdoing it.

These two factors:

[ QUOTE ]
2) I think my opponent is capable of checkraising with something worse than I have (including when he has a draw)
3) My hand is weak enough that I don't want to call a checkraise and a river bet.

[/ QUOTE ]

They need to reach a certain balance in order to make checking behind best. For 2.), if your opponent is not just "capable" of a checkraise with a worse hand, but extremely capable and quite likely to bluff/semi-bluff, then you are missing a good bit of value by not betting and allowing him to bluff when you have something decent enough to showdown. You give him a free card when it would have often cost him 2 bets to see the river with a worse hand, and sometimes you give him a free shot at the pot when he would have folded the turn with some outs.

As for 3.) your definition of "weak" seems a little off. Middle pair HU against an aggressive player is NOT a weak hand under most circumstances. It is in fact quite strong and you should be betting gladly, knowing that you can just as gladly call down a raise if one should come.

A more precise explanation that I like from that thread is a quote of stripsqueez quoting Nate

[ QUOTE ]
i've been quoting nates comment from a day or 2 ago that you shouldnt be afraid of a turn raise when your action is clear

[/ QUOTE ]

In other words if you think there's a strong chance that your hand is best on the turn and that there will still be a pretty strong chance (enough to give you an easy call down) if you are checkraised, then betting is usually a no brainer. If, however, a checkraise will put you in a very tough spot and probably make you fold when you likely would have had some outs to improve, or may have had the best hand, that's when checking starts to gain some merit.

Imo, the most important thing to take from this discussion is that it's very important to always be thinking multiple plays ahead in a poker hand. Every move you make should be part of a plan that includes as many contingencies as possible, not just an isolated action.

[aslowjoe]

Yes don't overdue it. I am just now starting to do this but betting is still the best option. Some situtation where I might do it.

KQ
Flop AK8 bet 9 check call

AJ flop KT5 bet 5 check call
I used to auto bet these heads up. Any other examples?

[witeknite]

Be carefull of this on drawy boards. I think you will end up giving to many free cards. Also, I beleive this is opponant dependent. If villian likes to bluff, make him bluff more. For more info on this, see the Stopping and Inducing bluffs section of TOP.

WiteKnite

[redbeard]

joe i like your line in both of these examples. in number one so many people play any ace and love to check/raise this on the turn i like this a lot. as for example number two the gut shot coming in will in all likelyhood pay off two bets on the river when you can raise his auto bet on the river (also coupled with the likely holding of one of the two broadways). if others could come up with more examples it would be helpful for me as well. i'm not very creative and consider myself more of an abc player which isn't good, but examples help tremendously.

[Cerril]

The second situation seems pretty good though bets are usually right, you can get some underpairs to fold here. The first is probably actually alright, since you're behind enough to not want to put in too many more bets, a worse king will almost certainly bet the river, and if you're ahead there are only four outs at most against you - and the aggro player is probably as likely to semi-bluff with the straight draw as fold, and probably not going to simply check/call a gutshot as a more passive player would