Open Limp UTG, Genius or Jopke?

Nfinity · #1 07-23-2005, 06:56 AM

2+2 table last night. Jopke(Grunchcan) is UTG in this hand. He just sat down maybe a little over a rotation ago. He's been playing very solidly(from my POV) thus far. The game goes SH'd and this comes up. I automatically felt the open-limp was suspect. The table was pretty aggressive, but I limped, hoping the rest of the table would get suspicious as well and let me see a cheap flop.

Grunch said he'd explain the open-limp when I posted the hand. So here it is:

Party Poker 0.50/1 Hold'em (6 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is MP with T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
UTG calls, Hero calls, 1 fold, Button calls, 1 fold, BB checks.

Flop: (4.50 SB) J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (4 players)
BB checks, UTG bets, Hero folds, Button raises, BB folds, UTG 3-bets, Button calls.

Turn: (5.25 BB) Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
UTG bets, Button raises, UTG calls.

River: (9.25 BB) Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
UTG checks, Button bets, UTG raises, Button 3-bets, UTG calls.

Final Pot: 15.25 BB

Results in white below: 
UTG has Js Ts (flush, queen high).
Button has 7s 2s (flush, queen high).
Outcome: UTG wins 15.25 BB.

Nfinity · #2 07-24-2005, 12:44 PM

I'm bumping this because I don't think Grunch caught it.

POKhER · #3 07-24-2005, 12:48 PM

Whats the Q here? I'm new and i limp JTs.

just wondered, Thanks.

kapw7 · #4 07-24-2005, 12:52 PM

Your limp with KTo was very bad. You have a hand that is good HU but very bad multihanded. Raise or fold.
I'd be interested to see what Grunch has to say here. I used the open limp a lot in 2+2 tables as ppl will take this as weakness and try to "isolate" you. But you can not do it only with AA etc so you need to do it with a hand like JTs. Very good multiway and decent HU.

GrunchCan · #5 07-24-2005, 01:13 PM

Sorry, I did miss this.

I don't remember everything I was thinking when I played this hand, but I do remember that this again was less a matter of my two cards and more a matter of my opponents.

Normally an openlimp from EP is a sign of weakness. But at this table, an openlimp from EP is surely a sign of extreme strength. At the very least, there was a big spectre of doubt over my play here. Virtually any flop that came after my openlimp could be seen to have hit me, especially if it comes A- or K-high.

Furthermore, my openlimp encourages a lot of overlimps behind me which is great for my actual holding (JTs). But it very strongly discourages a raise behind me unless the raiser has a monster, becasue everyone would be afraid that I'm going to LRR.

If the flop comes bad for me -- that is, A-high, K-high, rags or suited wrong -- I can bet and take down the pot very often. If the flop comes good for me -- as it did -- I can try to pull in as much action as possible. I can't get action by checking though, becasue a check by me would probably be seen as an attempt to CR, and people won't usually bet. This is a disadvantage of my play since it makes less when I do flop g00t. But I will usually flop bad, so my play is best for the most common case.

Don't try this at a regular table, however. It will backfire every time.

GrunchCan · #6 07-24-2005, 01:15 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Whats the Q here? I'm new and i limp JTs.

just wondered, Thanks.

[/ QUOTE ]

The question is why did I (jopke) openlimp. This was a private 2+2 table, which is a different animal from a normal table. Openlimping at this table is very unusual -- even more unusual than openlimping at a normal table.