Theory post: When is it correct to three bet flop OOP?

[Maier]

I can't think of any instances in which it's correct to three-bet flop.

With AA on a KT4 board, it seems more correct to call the raise and then check-raise turn.

If you have a stronger hand, say a set, a three-bet allows your oppenant to release a weaker hand.

Also related, When is the right time to check-raise turn OOP and when is it right to stop-and-go turn?? Is the only difference when you believe your oppenant raise on a flush draw on the flop?

Bottom line: I feel like I have a general idea when to use different betting lines, but my reasoning behind them is murky. The purpose of this post is to clarify it for all.

I think this can be an interesting thread. Let it begin.

[TheWorstPlayer]

I'm sorry, but this is a very simple question. The decision as to when to 3-bet the flop is exactly the same as the decision to be the flop initially. The only thing that is different is that the villain's hand range can now be defined (to whatever extent possible, given the specific villain) by the fact that he/she raised the flop. And now the pot is bigger than it was initially. The correct action to take (call, 3-bet, fold) is completely governed by fundamental poker theory.

[wtfsvi]

It is correct to threebet when you think your oponent is semi-bluffing. Or when you have a big draw and some folding equity (when you're semi-bluffing yourself). Or when you have no draw and a lot of folding equity.

Or when you have a monster, and think villain will put you on a semi-bluff if you three-bet. And so on.

[BobboFitos]

[ QUOTE ]

With AA on a KT4 board, it seems more correct to call the raise and then check-raise turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

this is false, if there is one PSB ish left after villain's raise, it's raise or fold time. if you decide he'll raise many more hands then just kt/set, you 3bet all in.

[ QUOTE ]

If you have a stronger hand, say a set, a three-bet allows your oppenant to release a weaker hand.


[/ QUOTE ]

Ks 9h 8h

i have kk: i bet opponent raises i will reraise here.

[ QUOTE ]
Also related, When is the right time to check-raise turn OOP and when is it right to stop-and-go turn?? Is the only difference when you believe your oppenant raise on a flush draw on the flop?


[/ QUOTE ]

in an unraised pot with top pair, if i get raised on a flop with lots of draws i'll call and lead a non draw card. it's a stop & go that has many bonuses.. the "information" aspect allows me to let it go to raise; the "protection" part lets me protect my hand if my read if right.

in a raised pot, where a c/r is all in, i may chose that option. (or check fold. all things depend)

[chuddo]

not sure if you are differentiating between a flop check, player A bet, player B raiser, then you 3-bet.

or a bet, player A raises, and then you 3-bet.

in the first instance it usually happens if i flop a set on a co-ordinated board and two or more loose-agg players are behind me and i can expect at least a bet, and maybe a raise. then i can go ahead and jam and expect to be called by any decent draw or moderately strong hand.

in the second instance it is a line i often take when i flop a set against a preflop raiser. typical bet 3/4th pot, get raised nicely, and ship it in there and expect a poor player to call with an overpair. strong draws played this way as well dependant on the players and stack depth.

so yeah, not uncommon for me at all. in fact i wish it were more often, as it is always a big hand.

[Maier]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

With AA on a KT4 board, it seems more correct to call the raise and then check-raise turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

this is false, if there is one PSB ish left after villain's raise, it's raise or fold time. if you decide he'll raise many more hands then just kt/set, you 3bet all in.

[ QUOTE ]

If you have a stronger hand, say a set, a three-bet allows your oppenant to release a weaker hand.


[/ QUOTE ]

All right, but say the oppenant has about 3-6 pot sized bets left after the flop raise, What should be the course of action? What about 10-13 pot sized bets and you're OOP?

[BobboFitos]

[ QUOTE ]
All right, but say the oppenant has about 3-6 pot sized bets left after the flop raise, What should be the course of action? What about 10-13 pot sized bets and you're OOP?

[/ QUOTE ]

if they have 10-13 pot size bets left after raising the flop (Im assuming this is a raised pot with kk..) you're playing mega deep. and i'd definately reraise.

3-6 i still would, just you have to play some turns now.

[Maier]

All right Bobby...

Just to play devil's advocate here, When would you call a flop raise with the intention of raising the turn? There is constantly discussion about why three-betting the flop is a poorly play in comparison to a turn-check raise for getting more money in the middle. Why are you a clear advocate of three-betting? It makes sens to me, and I'm sure you too, that three-betting just allows worse hands to fold, thus lowering your ev on the hand.

[fimbulwinter]

[ QUOTE ]
I can't think of any instances in which it's correct to three-bet flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

UTG raise, two callers you call on BB with A7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

bet, pray for a raise and push.


now do the same thing when you hold 67 or 55.

fim

[Alex/Mugaaz]

Stack sizes and the amount of the bets matter here.