Another KJo hand

Boolean · #1 07-16-2005, 03:21 AM

This a table filled with people who are mainly loose and passive after the flop. I raise from MP2 for value. At this point, no one in early position has shown any aggression which means that thus far, it's likely I have the best hand. Also, it's possible I can buy the button.

PokerStars 0.05/0.10 Hold'em (10 handed) http://216.119.70.224/converter/hhconverter.pl

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
1 fold, UTG+1 calls, 1 fold, MP1 calls, Hero raises, 1 fold, CO calls, 1 fold, SB calls, 1 fold, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls.

Flop: (11 SB) J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (5 players)
SB checks, UTG+1 checks, MP1 checks, Hero bets, CO folds, SB calls, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls.

Standard, hit TpGk, no aggression thus far, easy bet.

If I'm bet into on this flop, I'm definately raising and re-evaluating. If it's two to me at this point, I'm pretty sure 3-betting is the superior play. 3-betting gives me more initiative for the turn, but it's possible I'm behind on this drawless board. Unless one of the raisers has a 45 for the oesd, I could be behind a set, two-pair or AJ. I don't like calling because if I am behind because it completely removes myself from the hand, and if I play this hand, I have to play it now while the bets are still low. Calling down with this hand is a way to lose money (both when losing and winning a pot), so I 3-bet and re-evaluate.

Turn: (7.50 BB) A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (4 players)
SB checks, UTG+1 checks, MP1 checks, Hero bets, SB calls, UTG+1 folds, MP1 folds.

Still no aggression at this point, bet again for value.

If I'm bet into on this turn by a passive opponent, should I go into call-down mode? There are no draws on the board, and I can still catch a Jack or a King to make a superior hand (given that they just have aces). I think I'd definately call a turn and river bet, because they could've decided to try to bluff with a worse Jack. I don't feel a raise is an option here unless I'm facing someone quite aggressive after the flop, but that plays differently.

Also, against a check-raise, should I fold the river unimproved? Against these passive opponents, it's very unlikely they have anything but an Ace and I doubt I'd be ahead even 10% of the time.

Sorry if I'm what-ifing myself to death, but I want to be able to know how to play these offsuited broadway cards. I mean, I only get AKo so often. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Thanks
-Boolean

invictus33 · #2 07-16-2005, 03:55 AM

I don't know about the rest of the world, but I hate KJo. It's one of those hands that almost always gets dominated when I play it. With that said I like the flop bet with what you have, you're probably ahead hear barring any high pocket pairs or AJ, but high PP is unlikely, even a passive player would be 3 betting PF with AA-QQ; and with no raise on the flop bet I'm highly doubting any low sets out there. You're probably in the lead.

That A on the turn is the only card I wouldn't want to see with this board. There aren't any draws and the chances of someone sitting on an Ax is pretty good. The open bet isn't so bad to get rid of the other weak fishing hands out there and up your equity in the pot. If you catch another J or K on the river I'd be in there raising, but other then that I think I'd check it down for fear of being raised on the river when you're probably beat by that Ax.

@bsolute_luck · #3 07-16-2005, 08:13 AM

you've played it exactly right up to this point.

Dieter01 · #4 07-16-2005, 10:22 AM

I would limp PF.

If I understand you correctly you are not asking if you played the hand right, but rather how you should have played it if the SB bet into you on the turn, right?

I would call a bet and either call or raise the river depending on if it hits you or not. I wouldn't fold this as long as you are heads up. You most likely have 5 outs if you are behind (you could be ahead already). On the turn you are getting 8.5:1 to stay in. On the river I would think it is worth calling at 10.5:1 even if you don't improve.

KingOtter · #5 07-16-2005, 10:43 AM

[ QUOTE ]
This a table filled with people who are mainly loose and passive after the flop. I raise from MP2 for value.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't raise KJo from mid position unless I'm opening. It can be a very tricky hand post-flop evaluating whether or not your dominated.

[ QUOTE ]
At this point, no one in early position has shown any aggression which means that thus far, it's likely I have the best hand. Also, it's possible I can buy the button.

[/ QUOTE ]

I would need reads on the players after me to make that call. Since all you said was 'table was pretty loose' then I don't know if I can count on a button from a mid-position raise. Unless I've seen they don't like to cold-call.

[ QUOTE ]
Turn: (7.50 BB) A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (4 players)
SB checks, UTG+1 checks, MP1 checks, Hero bets, SB calls, UTG+1 folds, MP1 folds.

Still no aggression at this point, bet again for value.

If I'm bet into on this turn by a passive opponent, should I go into call-down mode? There are no draws on the board, and I can still catch a Jack or a King to make a superior hand (given that they just have aces). I think I'd definately call a turn and river bet, because they could've decided to try to bluff with a worse Jack. I don't feel a raise is an option here unless I'm facing someone quite aggressive after the flop, but that plays differently.

[/ QUOTE ]

You need to check the odds to see if you can call down a 5-outter here. A's are pretty common, and if a typical loose/passive player bets out after calling on the flop it is representing an Ace.

If it's a new player, or an unknown I may still call down just to see what he has, and make a note of it. If all he had was Ace-rag, or a suited Ace and was calling down for a backdoor flush that's pretty valuable information about his play.

In this case, yes you would have odds to call down getting at least 8.5:1 (if someone else had bet).

[ QUOTE ]
Also, against a check-raise, should I fold the river unimproved? Against these passive opponents, it's very unlikely they have anything but an Ace and I doubt I'd be ahead even 10% of the time.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sounds reasonable. There are times I like to fold to the c/r immediately. Like when I'm in late position, was betting a second-pair and I have a good feel for the player c/ring me. It works to my advantage sometimes when I do hit a set or something and I can 3-bet the c/r.

KO

aargh57 · #6 07-16-2005, 11:02 AM

I'll try and answer all your questions.

1st, I don't raise preflop. I don't think that you are necessarily likely to have the best hand. If you were UTG+1 or MP1 wouldn't you just limp with something like AJo?

Flop bet is fine. I agree with you that a raise would be fine also. I think it would be close between 3 betting and folding. I think you're right about calling being a poor option.

Turn bet is good here. If bet into I think I call the turn and fold the river unimproved. You're getting 8.5 to 1 to call but the way you played it I don't think someone is bluffing at you now.

On the river I'm checking it down. I'm just going by the "don't bet unless you think you'll win more than 50% when called rule."

I don't know if I'm right or not, but trying to reply to more hands to get a little better.

MrWookie47 · #7 07-16-2005, 11:09 AM

Raising with preflop is close. I'd like it with one loose limper, but with two, you already know it's going to be a family pot. You won't be able to do much bullying after your preflop raise. I think limping here would be better. This looks like a good case of forgoing a very small edge preflop so that you can exploit a larger edge postflop.

Other than that (which is a smaller deal than some might say), your play and thought processes have been perfect.

MrWookie47 · #8 07-16-2005, 11:12 AM

I'm raising AJo from any position, not limping. The only exception might be if it's 5 limpers to me, and I'm in one of the blinds. Completing/checking then might be more attractive, since my preflop edge is very small. Furthermore, his opponents are very loose. Giving them credit for a hand that dominates you (rather than one you dominate) is exceedingly weak-tight thinking at this point. I think limping is better, but his raise is a very, very small mistake.

MrWookie47 · #9 07-16-2005, 11:15 AM

I hope you're not suggesting that folding to the c/r in this case is a reasonable option when hero easily has odds to chase a 5 outer. Did I just misread your post?

KingOtter · #10 07-16-2005, 11:24 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I hope you're not suggesting that folding to the c/r in this case is a reasonable option when hero easily has odds to chase a 5 outer. Did I just misread your post?

[/ QUOTE ]\

No, I was talking in general about folding to c/r's, and when I do it. Sorry if it was unclear.

KO