Specific Question For Not Ready and Others

[David Sklansky]

Sometimes I make the mistake of bring up side issues in my posts which result in replies outside my main point.
Not this time.

I think there exists in this world a certain type of person that I will define in a moment. He or she is rare but not that rare. I would like to know if Not Ready and others believe such persons exist, and if so, what do they have to say about them.

The people I speak of:

1. Believe that life is essentially meaningless if there is no Biblical type God.

2. Believe that there is no absolute right or wrong if there is no Biblical type God.

3. Believe that if there is a biblical type god, they will not be "saved" if they don't firmly believe in his existence.

(At this point let me say that I meant for the above three things to capture the essence of Not Ready's positions. If I didn't do a good job, them I would simply stipulate that you change the above as necessary to what his positions on these issues really are.)

4. In spite of the above three beliefs, they believe that a Biblical God is unlikely to exist. They are not happy about that conclusion since it makes their life more "hopeless" and more meaningless. It also scares them because they still feel that God is an unlikely possibility and they do believe that they are doomed if that unlikely possibility turns out to be true.
However it does not logically follow from having beliefs 1-3 that one must believe that God exists. These particular people for some reason, scientific or whatever, reluctantly admit to themselves that in spite of hearing and understanding the gospel, and wishing it was true, they don't think it is.

I say millions of people fall into this category. What does Not Ready have to say about them?

[Darryl_P]

I was clearly one of these people about 6-7 years ago. It bothered me greatly for obvious reasons: Rationality guides my life and rationality leads me to believe there is probably no biblical type God, but if that's the case then life is meaningless. Tough thing to digest indeed.

Then I found myself with lots of time on my hands and was able to meditate deeply about these issues. At first it was very painful but a bit later some answers came to me as if from out of the blue.

In a nutshell I was able to find God on my own, but in a lot of ways it did not resemble the God of the bible. It was more like a Force rather than a being. I felt I could communicate with it, feel part of it etc. and that cured my depression almost instantly.

Now when religious people talk about God I no longer think of a pink elephant that doesn't exist, I just think of this Force and assume they mean the same thing, even if their details don't match mine. I find it easy and painless to ignore the details (which don't match) and concentrate on the spiritual elements which are very powerful and feel a sort of kinship with religious people, even if they are far less rational about the world than I am.

I'm still a big fan (and big user) of rationality, but it has moved to number 2 on my priority list, number 1 being my relationship with God and the duties I feel I have based on His/Its expectations of me.

[Cyrus]

Life has no meaning, in any sense of 'meaning' that we humans can assign to the term.

The refusal to accept our fate (which is death) and our condition (which is the wonder/horror of consciousness) lies at the very core of our psyche and is the root cause of everything we do. (Suggested reading). Hence our continuous and all-inclusive effort to replace or fill up total meaninglessness with artificial meaning (such as religion, nationalisms, etc - but not endeavors such as mythology).

And the human is an animal. An animal exactly like the rest of the animals and the fauna, in general. It can be safely argued that its brain's development has been different than all others'. A significant difference but also the only difference.

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...We can conclude that a project as grand as the scientific-mythical construction of victory over the human limitations is not something that can be programmed by science. Even more, it comes from the vital energies of masses of men sweating within the nightmare of creation -- and it is not even in man's hands to program. Who knows what form the forward momentum of life will take in time ahead or what use it will make of our anguished searching.
<font color="white">. </font>
The most that any of us can seem to do is to fashion something - an object or ourselves - and drop it into the confusion, make an offering of it, so to speak, to the life force.

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[NotReady]

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Hence our continuous and all-inclusive effort to replace or fill up total meaninglessness with artificial meaning (such as religion, nationalisms, etc - but not endeavors such as mythology)


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There can't be artificial meaning if there is no meaning. That's like saying there can be false truth.

If there is no meaning and all is irrational, why object to anything. A hair-brained religion has as much meaning as the most erudite philosophy,i.e., 0=0.

[goofball]

I wonder how many fall into a slightly different category. Someone who has been spoonfed the first 3 conditions and as such are mentally incapable of considering them to be false. Then, is forced to doggedly believe in the biblical type god in the face of any and all evidence to the contrary, because to not do so would force them to confront a meaningless life devoid of right and wrong. They feel such a helpless need to know and believe in the biblical god, that they prostelitize to any and all who will listen in hopes of being validated, they persecute all who don't believe like they do, and they ignore/squash evidence contrary to their belief.

[NotReady]

I've answered an lot of your questions. I will answer this if you will first answer the following:

1. Explain the meaning of the universe and justify the explanation.

2. Explain how morality is possible without an ultimate Lawgiver.

3. If there is a Biblical God, and He requires belief in Christ in order to be saved, explain how you expect to be saved without believing in Him.

[Triumph36]

I'm not going to answer these in any real way, and they weren't directed towards me, and I didn't read the other thread, but:

1. This is clearly impossible without deferring to a higher power. To explain 'the meaning of life' without doing so one would have to prove universal truths about men, a difficult if not impossible task. This does not rule out the possibility that there is no inherent 'meaning' to life.

2. I'm not sure what you mean by 'morality', but societies can construct ethics by which to live. All systems of morality limit or channel desires, and there is clearly the possibility of rational systems of morality; they will be incomplete, but they will not be fear-based either. See Plato's Gorgias for a discussion of why doing injustice is worse than suffering it, for example.

3. This is self-evident, and an attempt to back into Pascal's Wager.

[Zygote]

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I've answered an lot of your questions. I will answer this if you will first answer the following:

1. Explain the meaning of the universe and justify the explanation.

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To start, I don't think david claims to know the meaning of the universe. Further, I think the fact that biblical believers claim to know the meaning of the universe is what irritates david. I think its fair to say that only people who claim to know the meaning of the universe are placed with the burden of proving their claim's validity.

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2. Explain how morality is possible without an ultimate Lawgiver.

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Morality may not exist in the way you think of it. Morality may not exist at all. Why does it have to? Perhaps morality is an instincutal tool for survival or a self-imposed illusion.

Also, I wonder why you think morality would be at the core of universal meaning? What evidence do you have for this?
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3. If there is a Biblical God, and He requires belief in Christ in order to be saved, explain how you expect to be saved without believing in Him.

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Personally, i wouldn't expect to be saved. I don't see what this proves, though. For example, lets say there is a god and he requires belief in child molestation in order to be saved. As ridiculous as this sounds, i can't prove that this isn't the case right now, can you?. So, since this is an unprovable possibility, should i molest children just in case?

[NotReady]

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I think its fair to say that only people who claim to know the meaning of the universe are placed with the burden of proving their claim's validity.


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Assignment of burden of proof is arbitrary unless you have authority. Do you believe the universe has meaning?


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Morality may not exist at all. Why does it have to?

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It doesn't have to if the universe is irrational and has no meaning. In which case, why criticize Hitler, assuming you do.

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i can't prove that this isn't the case right now, can you?


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I've never said I can prove the God of the Bible.

[Zygote]

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Assignment of burden of proof is arbitrary unless you have authority. Do you believe the universe has meaning?

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I cannot defend any claim regarding whether or not the universe has meaning, therefore, i don't make a claim.

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It doesn't have to if the universe is irrational and has no meaning. In which case, why criticize Hitler, assuming you do.

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The universe can have meaning and can have rationality without morality. Also, I criticize hitler because i think supporting people like him is not in my best interest.

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I've never said I can prove the God of the Bible.

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i never said you could. I thought you were impying that because one can't prove the bible wrong, one must adhere to its teachings out of fear of the bible possibly being true.