the math involved in poker

pokergods111 · #1 06-25-2005, 02:49 PM

My beginners question is "Do u have to be a math whiz or something to make a good poker player?". I have been playing online for maybe a year now and cant seem to get above breaking even or just flat out losing. About the only strategy i apply, honestly, is playing position starting hands but i cant seem to figure out how to win after the flop, consistently. It seems i always get outdrawn and by crap most of the time. So please anybody out there that can help me improve my game, give me some brutal honesty. Do i just suck? Oh yeah by the way i play fixed limit hold'em .50/$1.

Pov · #2 06-25-2005, 03:18 PM

Well your situation appears to be very much in line with the "common wisdom" on these forums that good pre-flop play will get you to break even and good post-flop play will give you a profit. Post-flop play is not simple and requires proper application of many different and sometimes complex concepts. I think your best bet is to pick up a book like Small Stakes Hold 'Em and read it thoroughly. Then attempt to apply some of the concepts to your game. Then read it again. I've read it probably 5 times and each time I find something new to focus on and feel I understand post-flop play just a little bit better.

On another note, you should be bonus chasing if you're not already. At .5/1 you can clear bonuses while breaking even to help you build your bankroll.

wyrd · #3 06-25-2005, 04:54 PM

I've been breaking even too (literally, I've not lost or gained any money playing NL, tournament winnings aside). However, I've recently picked up The Theory of Poker. There are some awsome concepts in the book. The Pot Odds are discussed more thoroughly than in other books, semi-bluffing is a great chapter, and the proper frequency of bluffing is probably the most amazing thing I've read in the book. By properly bluffing, you can gain quite a bit of profits (over time) even in hands where you are a clear underdog. I haven't finished with the book yet, but so far I definitely recommend it. I'll have to read this book 3-4 times before I can get the most out of it, that's how much info. this book contains.

If you're playing NL, I'd also recommend Harrington's book. I've read it, and it's great. It's where I've gotten most of my NL information from. I believe the use of Harrington's book in combination with The Theory of Poker will do any new NL player well, regardless if he's playing in cash or tournaments.

EDIT:
Getting back to the main question, you do not have to be a whiz. The only math you really need is the ability to calculate odds. Even in the Theory of Poker where it goes over many mathematical evaluations of why some things are more profitable, it all comes down to calculating odds. Once you know why doing something is more profitable than another by going through all of the calculations, you will be able to see what odds are required for that particular instance. While playing the game, all you need to do is calculate the odds with full knowledge that you are making a profitable play over time. Calculating odds is simple division.

AKQJ10 · #4 06-25-2005, 05:44 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Getting back to the main question, you do not have to be a whiz. The only math you really need is the ability to calculate odds. Even in the Theory of Poker where it goes over many mathematical evaluations of why some things are more profitable, it all comes down to calculating odds. Once you know why doing something is more profitable than another by going through all of the calculations, you will be able to see what odds are required for that particular instance. While playing the game, all you need to do is calculate the odds with full knowledge that you are making a profitable play over time. Calculating odds is simple division.

[/ QUOTE ]

Exactly, you don't have to be a whiz at calculating math at the table -- but you will have to do a little bit of memorization to compensate. It's mostly just multiplication and division, but to repeat what wyrd said it's good to go through the calculations to understand the why.

For example, in limit hold 'em I don't have to count my pot odds every time I flop a flush draw to decide whether to stay in. I know that a flush draw requires 4:1 on one card, 2:1 with two cards to come, and that I'm virtually always getting that in low-limit hold 'em unless the pot is really really tiny. So that's one piece of math I don't have to go through at the table because I've already learned it.

Some of your more uncommon draws may require either some division at the table or memorizing the outs-to-odds table, and I prefer the former. Let's say that I flop one overcard + gutshot + backdoor flush, and I estimate that to be worth 6 to 7 outs. (Gutshot = almost exactly 4 + overcard which may not win, say 1 + backdoor flush = 1.5) The number of unseen cards after the flop is usually 47, but I generally round it to either 45, 48, or 49 for easy division:

<ul type="square">[*]6 outs -> a little less than 6/48 --> 1/8 -> 7 to 1. [*]7 outs -> a little less than 7/49 -> 1/7 -> 6 to 1[/list]So I need to get between 6:1 and 7:1 on my draw to continue. All the math I've done comes from basic multiplication tables (6x8 = 48; 7x7 = 49) so I find it much easier to do that at the table.

Anything more precise than "between 7 and 8 to 1" is such a fine line that it can't be a very big leak if I play it "wrong". Implied odds are dependent on estimating how much you'll make if you make your hand, anyway, so it's an inexact science.

In summary, you don't have to be a math wiz but being able to do a little division at the table will save you from having to memorize the outs table.

One more question to the OP: How many hands have you played? It might be that you're just running slightly unlucky over a relatively small number of hands. (Even a number like 2-3K is considered small by most of the stats gurus on this site.)

pokergods111 · #5 06-25-2005, 07:32 PM

I do have SSHE but as you say i guess i need to reread it and then reread it again. The only problem is that i have a hard time with the way they count outs as partials and things like that. I dont understand the reasoning but I'm sure it is safe to assume david sklansky and associates gotta be correct.

pokergods111 · #6 06-25-2005, 07:40 PM

I know your gonna laugh but i havent kept many stats. I just downloaded the demo version of pokertracker and have something like 500+ hands that I have imported but i quit frankly cant make since of the information. I do use the break even odds chart in SSHE do decide weather i should call or fold but i think one of my biggest mistakes is overvaluing my hand.

pokergods111 · #7 06-25-2005, 07:54 PM

Sorry POV but i forgot to ask u how do u bonus chase. I was under the impression that u only get bonuses on your first deposit. I have heard of bonus whoring but i really want to make my money winning if u know what I mean. Could you please explain the bonus chase a little more in depth if or when you have the time.

NoChance · #8 06-25-2005, 09:40 PM

Read the top post in this section, "Links for Beginners". There is a link in there called Bonus Whoring 101.

pokergods111 · #9 06-25-2005, 11:22 PM

so r u a whore chance? if so then prey do tell. i really want a response from winning players. not bonus whores

Greg J · #10 06-26-2005, 12:58 AM

[ QUOTE ]
so r u a whore chance? if so then prey do tell. i really want a response from winning players. not bonus whores

[/ QUOTE ]
Most bonus whores are also winning players. Nothing wrong with whoring... it's free money, why not take advantage?

Oh, welcome to the boards. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Now STFU n00b. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]