Turn and river play sucked?

nozyrev · #1 06-23-2005, 02:41 AM

Was it ok to cap the flop? THanks!

Party Poker 1/2 Hold'em (9 max, 8 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is BB with A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]. MP1 posts a blind of $1.
UTG calls, 1 fold, MP1 (poster) checks, 2 folds, Button calls, SB completes, Hero raises, UTG calls, MP1 calls, Button calls, SB folds.

Flop: (9 SB) Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (4 players)
Hero bets, UTG calls, MP1 raises, Button 3-bets, Hero caps, UTG folds, MP1 calls, Button calls.

Turn: (11 BB) J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (3 players)
Hero bets, MP1 raises, Button calls, Hero 3-bets, MP1 calls, Button calls.

River: (20 BB) 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (3 players)
Hero bets, MP1 calls, Button calls.

Final Pot: 23 BB

aK13 · #2 06-23-2005, 02:45 AM

Borderline cap...

I'd just call the 3bet, and I'd check/call the turn. Your J is most certainly not winning this pot.

cold_cash · #3 06-23-2005, 02:48 AM

Flop cap is fine, but I don't like the turn 3-bet.

It looks like MP1 has a pretty good hand, (after he raises the turn after that [censored]-storm on the flop), so your non-heart outs are dubious.

therockofgibraltar · #4 06-23-2005, 02:58 AM

The cap is fine but don't 3-bet the turn. I think you can only count on your flush draw outs.

But here's a question: when you have played your draw like this and faced resistance, do you fold the river when that draw doesn't come or, like in this hand when you have a pair, check-call?

I find myself often in situations where I am hoping to catch my draw but I also have something, a bottom pair or middle pair. Should I call the river if the pot is big even if I don't catch it? If I don't have anything, I would fold.

Henke · #5 06-23-2005, 03:08 AM

I disagree with the other posters about the flop cap.

What are the reasons to cap here except that it's +EV? You could argue that raising can trive UTG out, and the pot is big. But with this action the probability that someone has something better than one pair is not neglectable. And if we're only drawing to a (nut)flush, there are no hands that we want to drive out that we can drive out.

By calling you're maximizing the chances of UTG calling, which is more +EV than him folding, and since two people has already raised, chances are it will be capped anyway.

cold_cash · #6 06-23-2005, 03:12 AM

Even if UTG folds when it comes back around we're still getting more than 2:1 on the bets going in. (If we count UTG's dead bet, which we should.)

nozyrev · #7 06-23-2005, 03:15 AM

Thanks. What is the logic behind the cap being borderline? I figured i had 35% chance of completing flush by the river and we were 4 players, then pot edge was 10%. Is my reasoning wrong?

aK13 · #8 06-23-2005, 03:16 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Thanks. What is the logic behind the cap being borderline? I figured i had 35% chance of completing flush by the river and we were 4 players, then pot edge was 10%. Is my reasoning wrong?

[/ QUOTE ]

By making it 3 bets back to UTG, you've pretty much guaranteed to shove him out of the pot.

cold_cash · #9 06-23-2005, 03:18 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Thanks. What is the logic behind the cap being borderline? I figured i had 35% chance of completing flush by the river and we were 4 players, then pot edge was 10%. Is my reasoning wrong?

[/ QUOTE ]

You can't count yourself in with the other players, and UTG might fold when it's 3 bets back to him, so you can't really count on him to call for sure either. (But you're on the right track.)

You're basically getting 3:1 if UTG calls, and 2:1 if he doesn't.

3:1 = peachy for you.
2:1 = pretty much break even for you. (Unless you have more outs than just the hearts.)

Henke · #10 06-23-2005, 03:18 AM

And I never said it was -EV, I actually said it was +EV...

But the best play should IMO be the one that maximizes EV.