Learning limit, Part I (KK hand)

punter11235 · #1 06-21-2005, 05:00 PM

Hello all,

I am nolimit player (currently at 200NL or 400NL). I decided to start my limit adventure at 2$/4$ level. I will be posting some hand and hope to understand limit better. Ok here's the first one I think I play it a bit weak/tight. Did I left a bigbet not raising river ?
(no reads yet as I just sit down) :

Paradise Poker 2/4 Hold'em (9 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is SB with K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
UTG calls, 4 folds, CO calls, Button calls, Hero raises, 1 fold, UTG calls, CO calls, Button calls.

Flop: (9 SB) 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (4 players)
Hero bets, UTG calls, CO folds, Button folds.

Turn: (5.50 BB) T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero bets, UTG raises, Hero calls.

River: (9.50 BB) T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, UTG bets, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 11.50 BB

Results in white below: 
UTG has 8s Qs (two pair, queens and tens).
Hero has Kd Kc (two pair, kings and tens).
Outcome: Hero wins 11.50 BB. 

Comments ?

einbert · #2 06-21-2005, 05:02 PM

I can't decide whether I like three-betting the turn or donkbetting the river, but I am leaning towards three-betting the turn.

imported_CaseClosed326 · #3 06-21-2005, 05:02 PM

Looks ok to me. I don't usualy throw in another raise anywhere against an unknown. But I can be pretty weak tight as well.

shant · #4 06-21-2005, 05:02 PM

3-bet the turn. If he caps, you can go into call-down mode.

punter11235 · #5 06-21-2005, 05:05 PM

I dont know how often ppl folds toppair here but I am afraid that he can fold this to my 3bet on the turn and only call with better hands.

shant · #6 06-21-2005, 05:08 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I dont know how often ppl folds toppair here but I am afraid that he can fold this to my 3bet on the turn and only call with better hands.

[/ QUOTE ]
Trust me, only a small minority of players will play top pair this way AND be able to fold on the turn. If he felt top pair was strong enough to wait for the turn to raise, he is not folding to your 3-bet.

mosta · #7 06-21-2005, 05:10 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I can't decide whether I like three-betting the turn or donkbetting the river, but I am leaning towards three-betting the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

ditto, except I lean towards donk-bet, for reasons I mentioned before. I dont' want to be capped and I don't want to fold.

DeuceKicker · #8 06-21-2005, 05:37 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Trust me, only a small minority of players will play top pair this way AND be able to fold on the turn. If he felt top pair was strong enough to wait for the turn to raise, he is not folding to your 3-bet.

[/ QUOTE ]

But isn't it also true that only a minority of players at 2/4 will even raise with 'only' top pair against a PFR with an overcard on the flop? This smells too much like two pair or a set to be going crazy with nothing but an overpair.

I want to get to showdown, and if he caps the turn I'd have a tough time justifying staying with my hand. For the same price I can see the showdown and get some notes on his play.

Edit: For those who want to bet out on the river... you still want to do this when it pairs the card he raised on? With no read?

shant · #9 06-21-2005, 05:42 PM

[ QUOTE ]
But isn't it also true that only a minority of players at 2/4 will even raise with 'only' top pair against a PFR with an overcard on the flop?

[/ QUOTE ]
I don't agree with this. In my experience, players on Party have no respect for a PFR, and will play their hands stupidly enough to warrant a 3-bet on this turn.

DeuceKicker · #10 06-21-2005, 05:57 PM

I'll admit the number of players who will bet into your PFR--and show (sometimes mindless, sometimes cunning) aggression--has gone up lately, but I still think it's well enough below 50% that I'd need a read along these lines before I make that assumption.