Who played the worst? (Serious Question/Interesting Hand)

[boxedIn]

I found this hand interesting simply because there was a huge amount of action on a non-action oriented flop for all of these hands. I'm interested in hearing any comments/critiques about the play of any of the participants, particularly which player you think misplayed their hand and which did not.

This is a full ring game .50/1 NL on Stars.

Players

EMP ($87): 7 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 8 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (weak-tight to TA)
MP ($60): A [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] Q [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (weak-tight)
Button ($158): ?? Unknown and not that relevant (??)
BB ($199): 6 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 7 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (TA to LAG)

Preflop
EMP limps.
MP raises to $6.
Button calls $6.
BB calls $5.
EMP calls $5.

Flop
A [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 7 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 5 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

BB checks.
EMP checks.
MP bets $12.
Button folds.
BB raises $20 to $32.
EMP calls $32.
MP min-raises $20 to $52.
BB calls $20.
EMP calls $20.

Turn
6 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

BB bets $30.
EMP calls $29 allin.
MP calls $2 allin.

River
J [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

EMP wins sidepot of $53.
EMP wins main pot of $185.



I don't know, maybe this isn't an interesting hand at all, but after watching it I've been trying to figure out whether any of these players truly made huge mistakes and so far, I'm inconclusive. So I put it up to the masses...

[TexArcher]

I'll say BB played it the worst with that check-raise on the flop. First off, why semi-bluff that board with second pair after a decent pre-flop raise? Secondly, if he's going to do it, did he really think a $20 raise would buy the pot?

[sourbeaver]

MP played it horrible.
Preflop: 10% of his stack with AQo ?? If he's gonna go that hard with top-pair building hand, he definitely should blast at it on the flop. No wonder he got broke on TPGK the way he played it ...
Drastically underbetting the pot with a draw-heavy board and 3 opponents, that's just horrible. I see he wanted to get it all-in on the flop by hoping for a raise (which, with his hand and that many opponents, is kinda donkish).

EMP. I don't like the flop call. He is roughly 2:1 to flush it up to the river and with that big a pot (not mentionning that his call is around 40% of his stack), he is committing himself. Not mentionning that there could be a reraise behind, which he'd be foolish to fold to. What if the turn is a blank for him ? If EMP plays this hand on the flop, he HAS TO PUSH over the reraise to 32$. The additional 20$ call on the flop is suicidal.

BB is very aggro on second pair no kicker and no valuable draw against two opponents. He might be hoping to take it down right there, which is alright if he has a good read. But the 20$ flop flat call is again horrible (he has 2 clean outs, 1 to 2-pair and 1 to trips, and can perhaps pick an OESD on the turn, oh wow). Catching his magnificient 2-pair out on the turn, he better set the others all-in, now that he's got to that point. But no soup for that move, he butchered the whole rest of the hand.

[sourbeaver]

This hand makes me want to slap myself silly, and I wasn't even playing it ! [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

[boxedIn]

I'll post my thoughts here now that a few responses have been posted.

I've been thinking about this for a while, and to be honest, I actually think of all the people, BB played it the best, followed by EMP, followed by MP. My justification is as follows ...

BB made an aggro play at the flop, which I'm pretty certain was to try to steal it away from a weak Ax or a PP and it went horrible awry. But he had to call $20 into what was currently a $120 pot and liable to be a $200 pot, so even assuming not all his outs are clean, I don't think his play after that reraise could be helped, as long as he's willing to put no more money into the pot without improvement.

I think EMP should have been more aggressive on the flop, as someone mentioned, I think the best move is to push allin over the reraise from the BB. However, he knows he's got to be around 40% to win this hand if he's not against a set, and considering the money in the pot preflop, he's probably got the odds to call off his entire stack here.

EMP made a fairly strong move preflop, which is half-bad, half-good. That being said, his postflop bet was horrible and invited action from drawing hands. He got a bit lucky on the reraise from the BB, but didn't have the stack size to take advantage of it by pushing off all draws. Not protecting his hand on this board is suicidal, if he does think he has the best hand, which I think he can assume -- however that cold call by the EMP is very very scary and considering the action, without a good read of the two players as overaggro, a fold might even be an option here.

All in all, I think MP played too strong preflop and too weak postflop, EMP played the part of a calling station, and BB played overaggressive. But considering that BB had folding equity and could have no idea he was up against the hand that killed him -- 78s, I don't think it's a horrific move in the long run.

I still cringe when I read this hand history though and I'm really still not sure what to think of it ... I'm still very very interested in comments on this hand, as it's been a discussion amongst a few of my friends for a while now.

[wtfsvi]

</font><blockquote><font class="small">Svar på:</font><hr />
...and BB played overaggressive. But considering that BB had folding equity and could have no idea he was up against the hand that killed him -- 78s, I don't think it's a horrific move in the long run.

[/ QUOTE ] I think it's BB's own fault that he didn't know he was up against a good hand. He can't check raise the flop in this situation.

You say MP is weak-tight. I suppose that means he's likely to have a large pair when he raises that big preflop. I'm not a fan of BB calling 10% of villains stack from terrible position with 67s, but when he's done it, I think he must bluff an A-high flop against a weak-tight villain. He can't check raise in this position though, that gives him no information (about any of the other players' hands) before it's too late. He has to lead out for a pot sized bet. If raised, he can let it go with only half the losses.

I think EMP played it ok. His preflop call is better than BB's, since his position is better. Limping in the first place is quite questionable/bad though. Onto the flop, if he pushes over the check-raise, he might figure chances are only one of villains will call. He doesn't want that. He wants them either both to fold (this would be best, but he might see it as unlikely given the action), or he wants them both to come along to sweeten the odds. The call helps him accomplish the latter. I'm not saying a push over the check raise wouldn't be better, but calling is not too bad.

MP's flop underbet sucks. That is, if he isn't fairly certain the LAGy BB will come over the top with any two a lot of the time (my guess is that MP has no idea BB is LAGy, and BB is not a maniac anyway, so yeah; the underbet sucks.). When action comes back to MP, he should either fold to the check raise or push over the top of it, depending on reads. (The cold call from semi-weak-tight EMP should really set off some alarm bells, so a fold might be in order.) Anyway, he went with the push (or a reraise size that equals it). That's not horrible.

BB played it worst and EMP best imo. But none of them played it good.

[soah]

EMP probably should not have limped in preflop. His flop play is defensible. Someone probably has an ace, so not much point in leading out at the pot... someone will call him. Check-pushing is the next best plan, but BB got in the way. The pot is huge now and pushing be unlikely to make BOTH opponents fold. Since he must improve to win, he might as well try to keep both opponents in the pot... I mean, what good would it be to get MP to fold a hand like AQ if the BB calls with AK? Just calling there increases the chances of both opponents staying in, and he will have odds to call a push on the turn.

MP's preflop raise is a bit large, but not too big of a deal. The flop bet is probably too small, but due to the size of the pot and his remaining stack size, his ability to protect his hand is already somewhat diminished anyway. In his position, I'd consider myself pretty much pot-committed and just do whatever possible to get some action from worse hands, and his weak bet actually achieved the desired effect. Of course, that doesn't mean that his play was "correct" but in this case it happened to work.

BB [censored] it up pretty bad. He didn't have enough odds to see the flop, especially out of position, and he picked a stupid spot to bluff-raise.

[soah]

I'd just like to point out that I misread the flop action and didn't see MP's reraise. I was in a hurry and didn't doublecheck everything before I posted, so I ended up just thinking that everyone started out with $20 less than what they actually had. The additional money there gives EMP more folding equity if he pushes, and makes things worse on him if he just calls and faces a $50 bet on a blank turn. Whether MP should fold to the checkraise and the call is read-dependent. Obviously it would be better to push instead of leaving just $2 behind, but obviously it's going in the pot eventually so it's not a big deal.