Mentally Slowing the Game down

[LazyFool526]

Before I start, I would just like to explain that Im a newbie to this site and I would like to become a better poker player. I have been playing casually for 3 yrs but am not starting to get serious w/ it. I just knew basic basic stuff like slowplaying and stuff like that. I never used pot odds and stuff like that...a serious rookie. I just bought TOP and SSH by 2+2. I am 1/2 way done with TOP

Anywho... I was playing in a home game tonight and tried to encorporate the many things i learned in the 150 pages ive read. However, I found that the game was so fast that I wasnt able to compute the multitude of information like pot odds. I was wondering if you had any hints for me that would help me compute all this information?? I'm playing online and I'm definatly not fast enough mentally there either. Please help all that you can. I'm sorry for the broadness of this topic.

[trumpman84]

I use this little system. Take your number of outs on the flop and multiply it by 4 and that's your odds to make your hand by the river. For instance, a flush draw = 9 outs times 4 = 36% This means that you are a little less than 2 to 1 dog and need 2 dollars for every 1 you put in. On the turn, you take your number of outs and multiply it by 2. Flush draw is 9 outs multiplied by 2 = 18% on the turn to make your hand by the river which is about a 4 to 1 dog.

This isn't exactly accurate, but it gives ballpark numbers. You just have to be good at counting your outs (i.e. if you think overcards will win or if you have a backdoor flush draw, etc.)

[PokrLikeItsProse]

The way I play is that I'm not necessarily computing exact odds as I go along. I'm spending more time trying to figure out my opponents' play. Which isn't to say that I don't figure those things out. Players say that you need experience to get better. After so many hands, I've faced a great many situations that come up every once in a while. The first time, I made a guess at what to do. If it was interesting enough to remember later or it came up again often enough to the point I had to consider, then I would use pencil and paper to figure out the right play. (Some of the times, the right and wrong play were not very far apart in profitability.) I more or less now know, for example, in what situations I will call with ace-high on the river in limit hold em, although I may have to think about if I find myself with an unusual opponent or a new situation.

Generally, poker for me often involves pre-planning my course of action. For example, let's say I choose to play suited connectors in limit hold em. I know in advance that I usually am not continuing very far in this hand unless I flop top pair, two pair, a flush draw, or a straight draw. Already, in my mind, I am calling up what odds I need if I flop a draw of some sort. I have already figured out if my table and opponents are the type such that I would consider calling one bet if I flop middle or bottom pair, especially if I also flop a backdoor flush draw. I know that in a large pot at a passive table with little flop raising, bottom pair or a gutshot straight draw can be reasonable hands for calling one bet.

So, basically, my advice is to compute as much of it as you can in advance.

[Yawkey]

As a beginner (and probably up through a very solid player) you can get by on a lot of pot odd generalizations. There are three that I find very helpful, the rest can be quickly assumed from these three. These are the Flush draw (9 outs), outside straight draw (8 outs), and two over cards (6 outs). After the flop your odds for these hands are flush: 35%, outside straight 31.5%, and two overs: 24.1%. Memorize these three stats round them to 35%, 30%, 25%, make it easy. Now you can get super technical with implied odds and whatnot, but here's how I like to think of it to keep it simple.

For a high flush draw, I can call or even raise on the flop any bet that is around the size of the pot.

For an open ended straight draw, I can call any bet almost the size of the pot (lets go with 75% of the pot).

For two over cards I can only call small bets (less than half the size of the pot).

So now you have a basic structure to work with here to help get a handle on what you are looking for in pot odds. Now you can apply this to other hands, for instance an inside straight draw which has only 4 outs (less than two over cards), there aren't too many bets you want to call here probably check or fold. Then there's the outside straight flush draw where you have more outs than a flush draw, RAISE! Or Flush draw with two over cards is a good time to raise.

Before you know it the odds will just be second hand. The other thing that helps me improve my game is picking just one section of the book before my game and then focus on it for that game. So if I pick the section on tells (my personal favorite to work on), all I do for the whole night is look for tells. I don't worry about pot odds for that night, and focus on tells until it becomes second hand. Hopefully the next time I go I can focus just on pot odds, and the tells will just come to me because I practiced making that an integral part of my game. Then the next time I might focus on tactics like the check raise, slowplaying, and buying the pot. Slowly but surely everything comes together.

[mikehildebrand]

A lot of the responses above were about calculating pot odds and outs and equity, so I am not going to re-hash that here because it was all good advice.

Here is my advice. Using what you learn here, in books or other arenas, practice. I know that sounds odd, but here is what I mean. In order to mentally slow down the game, you need to physically slow down the game. I learned what I am about to say from reading Doyle Brunson, and it is simplistic, but it will make you faster and faster.

I take a deck of cards, when I have quiet time, and deal out 3-5 hands of hold 'em. I only look at my own hand, and to keep it "real" I revolve the deal, just as in a game. Pre-Flop, this allows you to re-inforce starting hand choice.

Then I run through the hand. I flop the board and calculate where I stand, based on the board and where my "opponents" are. I can take AS LONG as I want to try to see where I am at.

I do the same at the turn and the river, always calculating where I am at and re-figuring where my opponents are as new cards come out.

This is a very simple process, but think about it, do professional sports figures practice the fundementals in the game or spend hours before hand mentally preping. You will be amazed if you spend a few hours a week doing this with a deck of cards, how much quicker you become at many things (reading the board, calculating odds, etc.) and can apply them much easier in a game.

Another thing, in a game, PHYSICALLY slow down the game. Not too long, because that is bad form, but if you have to reasonably decide to call in any situation there is nothing wrong with taking a moment. Notice I said reasonably. If the pot is raised, re-raised and is to you and you sit on 2-3, I think you can figure this one out in a glance.

Look at pro's like Ferguson, they stoically look at there hand, think about it, then act on MOST hands. The action they take is the same regardless if they are going to muck or play. It is nearly impossible to value their hands.

Anyway, the best advice is hang with it, remember there will always be rail-birds with plenty of advice, and just play the best poker you can.

[sully4321]

The best advice I ever got as a rookie came from the movie "Rounders." In it, Damon's character (while talking about 7-card stud) says only start with Jacks or better split or 9s or better wired. I applied this to hold 'em starting hands and began to play with Jacks or better unpaired, or nines or better paired. Therefore, the only hands I played where:

AA, AK, AQ, AJ, KK, KQ, KJ, QQ, QJ, JJ, TT, 99 (Exceptions can be made for being in position or small blind where you have half the blind in already. Lower pocket pairs, and suited connectors --ie. 7d8d -- can be played in these positions.)



And if you decide to play, get in there raising. Represent strength at all times. You should "call" only reluctantly and cautiously.
If there are raises before or after you and you are holding AQ, KQ, KJ, QJ, JJ, or QQ play it VERY cautiously... if an opponent has one of the three major premium hands: AA, KK, or AK (everybody plays with these hands) you would be in trouble.

Only go for inside straight draws if you are getting excellent pot odds (ie. $1 needed to call a $12+ pot) aka if you can get in "cheaply". And if you are unsure of a hand, don't be afraid to muck it. If you're holding KK and AQJ flops with two suited, you're kings aren't worth [censored]. Muck those quietly, nobody is gonna make fun of you for "wasting" your pocket kings cuz they won't see. Better situations will arise, just be patient.


The final piece of advice I can give is to raise the same amount (an amount = to the big blind or twice the big blind) no matter what you're raising with. This will not only make it more difficult for opponents to read your betting habits but it will save you money on bad beats and most likely make you money when you have the nuts: four people calling a one dollar bet after the flop, turn and river is $12, whereas if you bet $12 after the flop you MIGHT get one person to call.

There it is... good luck and if you need more advice my AIM screenname is sullyman101.

[DireWolf]

Wow, this was a great post. I should go watch Rounders again to see if i can pick up any more tips. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

The only problem i can see is, if everyone watches Rounders, won't everyone know how you play?

[Yawkey]

Rounders has a lot of good poker advise that often gets played down as Hollywood scripting. One of the best examples that is often over looked is a page right out of Mike Caro's play book. This is in the end when Mike (Matt Damon) is playing Teddy KGB who is playing the roll of poker bully. Mike, then checks every hand and becomes a calling station, this as Caro puts it makes Teddy KGB "beg for mercy".

[sully4321]

Haha yeah but I only took my rookie starting hand selection from Rounders. I have improved my play and thus increased the number of starting hands I play. Also, if people think I only play those premium hands it's easier for me to bluff, which I have a habit of doing too much anyway.

[SpeakEasy]

[ QUOTE ]
I found that the game was so fast that I wasnt able to compute the multitude of information like pot odds. I was wondering if you had any hints for me that would help me compute all this information??

[/ QUOTE ]

There is only one answer:

Practice, practice, practice, practice. Eventually, calculating pot odds will become second nature.