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#1
06-11-2005, 07:45 PM
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3/6 to 5/10 jump
I know there have been a lot of posts about the 5/10 ring games over recent days and I had been thinking about making the jump. Well after 5k hands(small sample but enough to get a feel for the game) here is what I found out.
First, the difference between 3/6 and 5/10 is infinatley greater then the jump from .5/1 to 3/6 even(IMO). The games are much looser and dont seem to be filled with the standard weak tight players you find inhabiting the 3/6 games. Damn near every pot is raised preflop, and many are 3 bets or more. In 3/6 you can make plenty of $$$ by following closely the guidelines layed out in SSH but at 5/10 you will never get to play a hand. I started playing my same 3/6 game and found my VP$IP down around 9 after about 1k hands. Since every pot is raised I wasnt playing many hands and when I did, I had to win them to break even. After going down 120BB i decided to loosen up and play back much more. The result was a good chunk of my loosses coming back to me. I think the big adjustments that need to be made are 1. Sometimes let other ppl take control of the betting since the game is so aggressive and ppl will raise with middle pair and an over card and similar holdings, or check raise a single opponent with a 4flush and bottom pair. It gives you a chance to drop the hammer on later streets and allows them to semibluff with hopeless hands. Im not talking about constantly slowplaying, because ppl will play with you. Im saying you may want to come out fast and slow down when you hit opposition only to come over the top on the next street. I saw very little of this at 3/6 and it seems to be pretty standard at 5/10. 2. Learn to play well in steal/blind defense situations since you will rarely get a free look at the flop from the blinds. 3. Isolate weak players and watch for other TAG trying to isolate weak players. When a maniac raises or a weak player limps and a TAG reraises/raises you may want to watch for a pattern forming. With a playable hand you may look to reraise and isolate the TAG that was trying to do that very thing to the weak player. 4. Table selection!! While it is important at 3/6, you will still almost always have someone at your table who plays very badly. Often you will have several ppl. At 5/10 this is not true. While you may stumble accrost a moron who doesnt know what the hell he is doing you often have to seek these ppl out. 5. If you multi table you may want to drop down to fewer tables when you start. The reason I say this is the game is not so mechanical as 3/6 and lower. I can play 7 or 8 tables of 3/6 for hours and not have so much as a though go thru my head. At 5/10 ppl are constantly trying to push you off your hand and make other sorts of moves on you. So over all Im still down $$$ but moving in the right direction. I decided that I like 5/10 quite a bit more than 3/6 because I feel like im playing poker again. A lot of ppl recomend the 6 max games but since Ive never played 6 max at any level I dont thing 5/10 is the place to jump into it so I cannot speak on those games. The ring games I think are still quite good, though a lot of tough player play there, and highly beatable. comments?? 
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#2
06-11-2005, 07:50 PM
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Re: 3/6 to 5/10 jump
You must be playing an online 5/10 game because in table games people are much more loose passive and can see a flop rather cheaply.But i guess thats where game selection comes in, if your in game full of tactical sound rasing my option is look for a softer game to get more profit or reraise or fold most hands, calling is allmost never right in those games.If you played in a table game you would find ur winrate doubling, the fact is you get more hands online but that also means you could go broke faster.
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#3
06-11-2005, 08:05 PM
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Re: 3/6 to 5/10 jump
I've only played up through 3/6, but I thought I would try to chime in here because I've lately been making a concerted effort to adjust my play to the presence of a higher percentage of better (or at least tighter and more aggressive) players, especially how to play the later streets postflop heads up against thinking players.
[ QUOTE ] 1. Sometimes let other ppl take control of the betting since the game is so aggressive and ppl will raise with middle pair and an over card and similar holdings, or check raise a single opponent with a 4flush and bottom pair. It gives you a chance to drop the hammer on later streets and allows them to semibluff with hopeless hands. Im not talking about constantly slowplaying, because ppl will play with you. Im saying you may want to come out fast and slow down when you hit opposition only to come over the top on the next street. I saw very little of this at 3/6 and it seems to be pretty standard at 5/10. [/ QUOTE ] This sounds like something I sometimes do at 3/6. Because of the increased aggression, I imagine the pots swell pretty quickly. I would guess that most players don't release hands on the later streets, so value-betting and value-raising become really important. In general, it seems like you really have to understand postflop concepts well in order to handle situations that might have been routine before. [ QUOTE ] 2. Learn to play well in steal/blind defense situations since you will rarely get a free look at the flop from the blinds. [/ QUOTE ] This is already true to a certain degree at 3/6, as your winrate will take a hit if you don't defend your blinds properly or steal often enough. [ QUOTE ] 3. Isolate weak players and watch for other TAG trying to isolate weak players. When a maniac raises or a weak player limps and a TAG reraises/raises you may want to watch for a pattern forming. With a playable hand you may look to reraise and isolate the TAG that was trying to do that very thing to the weak player. [/ QUOTE ] Also something that comes up in 3/6, but I do generally play tighter there because about half of the TAGs or more don't understand isolation plays, so I am more wary to 3-bet hands that I would 3-bet if I knew for sure the TAG's raise was an isolation hand or better. [ QUOTE ] 4. Table selection!! While it is important at 3/6, you will still almost always have someone at your table who plays very badly. Often you will have several ppl. At 5/10 this is not true. While you may stumble accrost a moron who doesnt know what the hell he is doing you often have to seek these ppl out. [/ QUOTE ] So it seems that in addition to trying to find weak players, a lot of your profitability has to come from exploiting postflop errors by TAGs or overaggression of LAGs. One should be prepared for the volatility in results that will ensue. [ QUOTE ] 5. If you multi table you may want to drop down to fewer tables when you start. The reason I say this is the game is not so mechanical as 3/6 and lower. I can play 7 or 8 tables of 3/6 for hours and not have so much as a though go thru my head. At 5/10 ppl are constantly trying to push you off your hand and make other sorts of moves on you. [/ QUOTE ] FWIW, I usually play 2 tables of 3/6, though I'll play as many as 4. I play for recreation and with the primary goal of increasing skill (as opposed to maximizing my short-term hourly rate). Your reasons for playing and goals may be different, but even at 3/6, playing 2 tables has a lot of advantages. I try to get reads on players and make use of them as much as possible. I am really trying to work on my postflop play, which is probably better-than-average among 3/6 TAGs but sure needs a lot of work. I have learned that I have a fair number of leaks, mostly due to overaggression. At lower limits, I could push marginal hands because I'd have bad players calling me down with complete garbage often enough to make it profitable. Now I have to deal with the fact that better players will play back at me with their strong hands and sometimes with semibluffs (though I still make the mistake at 3/6 of thinking players make expensive semibluffs at a higher frequency than they actually do). I learned the hard way that sometimes raising the turn isn't so good if you're against a very aggressive opponent and his 3-betting will make me want to throw up. Sometimes calling down is better, as he continues to bluff his hopeless hands and I pay less to showdown when I am losing. Of course, the specific situation matters a lot, but my general point is that there is a lot more thinking that I need to do to beat 3/6 than to beat 0.5/1 or even 2/4. Can someone beat 3/6 on autopilot? Probably, but it sounds like when you move up in limits to 5/10 and higher, that you're going to need better postflop skills, so why not work on them at 3/6? It's got enough good players that you get some good practice, plus there's enough complete goofballs and such that you can win at a good rate. (Also, you learn to distinguish between hands played against horrible opponents and hands where you are up against thinking opponents -- and hands where both are in the pot at the same time.)
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#4
06-11-2005, 08:08 PM
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Re: 3/6 to 5/10 jump
The main thing I have learned from this forum is:
You don't need to find a new game just because most of the players at the table generally know how to play the easiest of the four streets correctly.
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#5
06-11-2005, 08:16 PM
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Re: 3/6 to 5/10 jump
Hi sweetjazz
First off good post. [ QUOTE ] Can someone beat 3/6 on autopilot? Probably, but it sounds like when you move up in limits to 5/10 and higher, that you're going to need better postflop skills, so why not work on them at 3/6? [/ QUOTE ] This is where I was not so long ago when I made my first 5/10 jump a few months ago. I put in a lot of work at the 3/6 tables and got to where I could beat 7 tables for a winrate of nearly 2bb/100. My problem was that when I moved up this time I had been beating the 3/6 for so long that plays had become almost routine and would work like clockwork. I got into a pattern of making these plays and could nearly do it in my sleep. When moving to the 5/10 I had to "wake up" and remember what I had learned since my last attempt at the 5/10.
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#8
06-11-2005, 08:52 PM
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Re: 3/6 to 5/10 jump
I've moved from 2/4 to 3/6 about 20,000 hands ago. I'm basically 0BB/100 over those hands. The first 10k were -2BB the last evened it out.
3/6 is a huge leap from 2/4. Everything that's described about aggression from 3/6->5/10 I could have said about the move from 2/4->3/6. All relative I guess. Ironically, in the very few hands I have at 4/8(prima) and 5/10(party) I had a much easier time. Sample size too small though.
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#9
06-11-2005, 08:59 PM
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Re: 3/6 to 5/10 jump
Yikes 20k hands on breaking even. If you don't mind me asking what was your winrate at 2/4, over how many hands, and how many tables did you play? I really don't see a huge difference in the few thousand hands I've played. You don't have to answer if you want to.
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