Two maniacs and top two pair

Tapin · #1 06-10-2005, 01:39 PM

Maniac 1 was 55/14/3.19 (with a 7.0 aggression on the river) over 75 hands and had a habit of cold-calling any amount preflop if he didn't raise, and then betting into the preflop raiser on the flop no matter what. Once he'd committed to the flop, he wasn't going anywhere, and it seemed to be an ego-battle for him -- he had to have control of the hand, even though he showed down bottom pair or 9-high frequently against the tighter players at the table.

Maniac 2 was 66/26/1.37 over 75 hands -- ultra-aggressive preflop and then significantly slower (to the point of fishyness) postflop. However, if Maniac 1 was in the hand, he tended to play back at him. I would've suspected collusion if it weren't for the number of times they capped HU all the way to the river with nothing.

Comment on all streets, please. I'll post my thinking in a bit.

Party Poker 1/2 Hold'em (9 max, 9 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is MP3 with A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
1 fold, UTG+1 (Maniac 1) calls, 2 folds, Hero raises, 2 folds, SB (Maniac 2) calls, BB calls, UTG+1 (Maniac 1) calls.

Flop: (8 SB) Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (4 players)
Maniac 2 checks, BB checks, Maniac 1 bets, Hero raises, Maniac 2 calls, BB calls, Maniac 1 3-bets, Hero caps, Maniac 2 calls, BB calls, Maniac 1 calls.

Turn: (12 BB) K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (4 players)
Maniac 2 bets, BB folds, Maniac 1 raises, Hero 3-bets, Maniac 2 caps, Maniac 1 calls, Hero calls.

River: (24 BB) Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (3 players)
Maniac 2 bets, Maniac 1 raises, Hero calls, Maniac 2 3-bets, Maniac 1 caps, Hero calls, Maniac 2 calls.

Final Pot: 36 BB

Fantam · #2 06-10-2005, 01:58 PM

PF: agree
Flop: agree
Turn: agree
River: agree

Based on your read of these players, I would have expected them to most likely have busted flush or straight draws, or at best a worse 2 pair or just 1 pair. Maybe even worse! I very much doubt that either of them had a boat, but even maniacs get lucky occassionally.

I dont think that you could have played this hand much differently. Anyway I look forward to reading your thinking during the hand and seeing the results.

Sorry, I forgot about the Q trips. I expect one of them may have had a Q, but probably still worth calling down on the river.

gharp · #3 06-10-2005, 01:58 PM

First of all, those are some good reads.

I think I play it just like you did given those reads. I don't like the number of ways you can be beaten on the river, but I think you have to call these goofballs down.

AlmightyJay · #4 06-10-2005, 02:03 PM

This looks fine to me. The river card sucks, but the pot is big enough to call it both times, I think. I expect to see a Q somewhere a lot, but I think you're ahead a significant amount of the time.

wireMan · #5 06-10-2005, 02:08 PM

I like your reads, but based on your reads I think you are losing this hand. The only thing leaving doubt is Maniac 2 playing back at Maniac 1, but Maniac 2 did nothing but come along on the flop and then lead the turn? JT seems like a good possibility even for a Maniac. I don't think I'm going along on the river, seeing them monsters of JT or even just a Q from Maniac 1.

Tapin · #6 06-10-2005, 02:34 PM

[ QUOTE ]
don't think I'm going along on the river, seeing them monsters of JT or even just a Q from Maniac 1.

[/ QUOTE ]
So would you play the turn any differently, or just fold when it's (initially) two to you on the river getting 13.5:1?

My thinking: Since Maniac 1 didn't raise preflop, he didn't have a pair or an ace with anything higher than a 9 or so. It's equally unlikely he had suited connectors higher than 87s or unsuited connectors higher than T9o, which would come into play on the turn -- I ruled out JT preflop, since that seemed like a raising hand for him. Or at least limp/raising.

Maniac 2 was in the SB and getting a discount, so he could've had any two preflop.

When Maniac 1 leads the flop, that was basically meaningless -- I'd seen him raise into the preflop raiser almost reflexively, so I instantly made it two bets with my TPTK, hoping (in vain) that Maniac 2 would drop out. When he called, I put him on spades. Maniac 1's 3-bet was again a reflexive action -- since I didn't let him get control yet, he had to try again. Of course I cap it, and Maniac 2's call further convinces me he's on a spade draw.

When the turn comes a K and Maniac 2 leads out, I'm suddenly fearing JT (in much the same way I fear melanoma in the next decade. A slight worry, but nothing I can do about it). Maniac 1's raise means he's got at least a Q, possibly an A. He doesn't have a pocket pair and JT is unlikely -- either would've been a preflop raise -- so with my top two pair and four near-nut outs, I figured I had enough pot equity to cap it since Maniac 1 was likely to put in another four bets to sweeten the pot on the river. If someone wants to tell me I'm wrong here, I'd love to hear it. Maniac 2 of course caps. AA/KK/QQ/AK/AQ/KQ would've been earlier aggression; spades probably wouldn't warrant this much aggression from him; I'm thinking K5 and JT are the only possible hands he's got. I can beat K5, and I'm drawing mighty slim against JT

The river Q suggests I now could be losing to a Q in Maniac 1's hand. I wouldn't've been the least bit surprised to see him turn over Q3o. However, I didn't think I could get away from it even though I knew it was going to cost me four bets (I knew my staying in the hand was 8:1 as soon as I was faced with 2 cold). I figured I was going to win better than one time in nine, so I did it. I can see the argument for reraising here, but neither was folding so it only would've changed the order of showdowns slightly.

I'll post results a bit later, if there's any interest.

einbert · #7 06-10-2005, 02:44 PM

[ QUOTE ]

PF: agree
Flop: agree
Turn: agree
River: agree

[/ QUOTE ]

Nice hand.

einbert · #8 06-10-2005, 02:44 PM

[ QUOTE ]
fold ?

[/ QUOTE ]

Hell no.

joeski19 · #9 06-10-2005, 02:49 PM

Crappy river card for us. I'd do the same thing and call down given your reads. NH and nice post. let me guess one of the maniac's had Q3o.

KaiShin · #10 06-10-2005, 02:54 PM

Looks good. Variance sucks against maniacs, and when you've got two, hooooo boy [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]