Interesting hand ($2,800 pot)

[B-Man]

$75-150, $15 ante, $25 force, the game was 7-handed.

I was dealt (J [img]/forums/images/icons/club.gif[/img] -J [img]/forums/images/icons/spade.gif[/img] )-Q [img]/forums/images/icons/spade.gif[/img] . All 4 queens were out, otherwise none of the doorcards was higher than a 10. The bring-in was on my right, and I completed the bet to $75.

The 3 [img]/forums/images/icons/diamond.gif[/img] on my immediate left raised to $150.

Folded to the Q [img]/forums/images/icons/club.gif[/img] and Q [img]/forums/images/icons/diamond.gif[/img] , who both called $150 cold! (Both are good players, the 3 [img]/forums/images/icons/diamond.gif[/img] is new to the table and I have never played with him before)

So the boards were:

(J [img]/forums/images/icons/club.gif[/img] -J [img]/forums/images/icons/spade.gif[/img] )-Q [img]/forums/images/icons/spade.gif[/img] ME!
(x-x)-3 [img]/forums/images/icons/diamond.gif[/img]
(x-x)-Q [img]/forums/images/icons/club.gif[/img]
(x-x)-Q [img]/forums/images/icons/diamond.gif[/img]

I raised to $225, the 3 [img]/forums/images/icons/diamond.gif[/img] capped it at $300 (now I knew exactly what he had), call, call, call. $1,330 in the pot after 3rd street.

4th street:

(J [img]/forums/images/icons/club.gif[/img] -J [img]/forums/images/icons/spade.gif[/img] )-Q [img]/forums/images/icons/spade.gif[/img] -K [img]/forums/images/icons/heart.gif[/img]
(x-x)-3 [img]/forums/images/icons/diamond.gif[/img] -brick
(x-x)-Q [img]/forums/images/icons/club.gif[/img] -brick
(x-x)-Q [img]/forums/images/icons/diamond.gif[/img] -5 [img]/forums/images/icons/club.gif[/img]

I checked (although in hindsight betting out might have won me the pot immediately), and everyone else checked.

5th Street:

(J [img]/forums/images/icons/club.gif[/img] -J [img]/forums/images/icons/spade.gif[/img] )-Q [img]/forums/images/icons/spade.gif[/img] -K [img]/forums/images/icons/heart.gif[/img] -J [img]/forums/images/icons/diamond.gif[/img]
(x-x)-3 [img]/forums/images/icons/diamond.gif[/img] -brick-brick
(x-x)-Q [img]/forums/images/icons/club.gif[/img] -brick-brick
(x-x)-Q [img]/forums/images/icons/diamond.gif[/img] -5 [img]/forums/images/icons/club.gif[/img]-brick

I bet $150, everyone called.

6th Street:

(J [img]/forums/images/icons/club.gif[/img] -J [img]/forums/images/icons/spade.gif[/img] )-Q [img]/forums/images/icons/spade.gif[/img] -K [img]/forums/images/icons/heart.gif[/img] -J [img]/forums/images/icons/diamond.gif[/img]-7
(x-x)-3 [img]/forums/images/icons/diamond.gif[/img] -brick-brick-brick
(x-x)-Q [img]/forums/images/icons/club.gif[/img] -brick-brick-A
(x-x)-Q [img]/forums/images/icons/diamond.gif[/img] -5 [img]/forums/images/icons/club.gif[/img]-brick 5 [img]/forums/images/icons/spade.gif[/img]

The pair of 5's bet out. I thought about raising, but since the other boards were not scary I thought they were drawing slim, so I decided to call hoping I would get two calls behind me, which I did.

On the river I did not fill up, the 5's checked, I bet $150, the 3 [img]/forums/images/icons/diamond.gif[/img] called, and the other two players folded.

The 3 [img]/forums/images/icons/diamond.gif[/img] of course had started with pocket aces, and called because he made aces-up on the river, so I took down a $2,800 pot.

[patrick dicaprio]

why do you think that betting out would have won you the pot on fourth street? on the contrary i would think that betting might be the right strategy since the guy with pocket aces might raise. the fact that he checked behind you doesnt mean that he wouldnt have raised.

the sixth street play is key. i think most players would have raised there, and would have won a smaller pot. many who are relatively new to poker might not understand this principle.

pat

[B-Man]

why do you think that betting out would have won you the pot on fourth street?

I said that because I think that they thought (because of the action on 3rd street) that I had pocket kings. Obviously the 3d had pocket aces (I don't think he would have fast-played a rollup with all those dead cards behind him), and when I re-raised they probably put me on pocket kings (or Aces, but based on the play of the 3d, I think they suspected pocket kings). When I caught a king and everyone checked behind me, I think they were suspicious. I might be wrong...

[Hobart]

You made a good read on the 3d hand. I would have been suspicious of trips especially with an unknown player,however your explanation is on the mark. Nice pot.

[Ray Zee]

i would have raised here as well on sixth street. there is 2300 in the pot and i dont want to give any possible gut shots the right price, just to pick up one extra bet. plus they may come anyway and then the call really costs you some dough. people that get cute in big pots get broke.

[Andy B]

Perhaps my hand-reading skills aren't what they should be (they ain't), but I don't know how you can be so sure that an unfamiliar player has Aces on third street. To be sure, that is his most likely hand, but I have seen people re-raise rolled-up trips with hopeless cards behind them (I even did that myself once*), so I do think that trip Treys are within the realm of possibility.

I don't think that a $75 fourth street bet is going to buy a $1300+ pot even if you show them trip Kings. I would have led on fourth, hoping that the apparent Aces would raise and knock the other guys out.

Obviously, you bet fifth. On sixth, I raise every time. The pot is worth claiming at this point. If you just go for the overcall, the guy with the pocket Aces is getting something approaching correct odds to suck out on you. I don't particularly want him in there. Slow-play trips on the early streets, not the late streets. Naturally, you bet the river. Nice hit. [img]/forums/images/icons/smile.gif[/img]

*Five-handed $30/60 stud/8 game during the spring. Reasonably tight player is low and brings it in for the full $30. Behind me are a Jack, an Eight, and a Nine, something like that. I have (AA)A. I figure the other guys aren't calling in any case, and the bring-in will play with me. I raise to $60, and everyone folds, including the bring-in! Bring-in had something like (A9)5. Boy do I play good.

[B-Man]

Perhaps my hand-reading skills aren't what they should be (they ain't), but I don't know how you can be so sure that an unfamiliar player has Aces on third street. To be sure, that is his most likely hand, but I have seen people re-raise rolled-up trips with hopeless cards behind them (I even did that myself once*), so I do think that trip Treys are within the realm of possibility.

You are correct, he could have been rolled up, but I thought it was highly unlikely he would have made it $150 rolled up, in 3rd position, with a bunch of dead cards still to act. Like you said, I have seen other people play rollups similarly, but usually they will wait to raise.

[J_V]

I can't think of a worse principal. Not raising sixth street is a disastrous mistake. There is a lot of bad advice going around these days.
Not only will it cost you in raw dollars, it will cost you in too many lost pots. Ray Zee is on the money.

[AmericanAirlines]

Hi B-Man,
Since you had him on Aces at 3rd street, what did you calculate as your odds to outdraw him? Did the pot justify it? Or did you use some other process to decide to chase?

Also, how much did you discount the pot odds for the other players in the hand that could've outdrawn you as well.

I have to admit, it would've taken me to 4th street when 3d checked for me to feel like it was big pair. Since I figure he read you as two large pair at that point, and wanted to try to get Aces Over on the cheap and outdraw you back.

So, just interested in how you decided to chase, because catching the J on 5th street bailed you out nicely.

Sincerely,
AA

[MRBAA]

Well, by my count there's $505 in the pot by the time it comes back to B-Man. He's got a two flush and a two straight, in addition to his live jacks. So folding is not an option here. I do question the reraise, as it won't knock anyone out and in fact will give others odds to chase. But I'm not sure it matters much (aside from increasing his variance) as he is going to have to improve to win anyway. Sure he got lucky on fifth, but he belonged in the hand. The huge error, as others have pointed out, was getting cute and not raising sixth to knockout others. When the pots get huge, winning the pot not an extra bet or two is paramount.