Too aggressive with no hand and no draw?

Ghazban · #1 05-10-2005, 07:33 PM

BB has been at the table for one orbit and hasn't really played a hand. I don't know if he saw me as a raging maniac but I'd raised a couple hands in the past orbit and taken it down either preflop or with a flop bet. Is this a bad time to represent strength without a better read?

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ BB (9 handed) converter

MP1 ($287.55)
MP2 ($302.15)
MP3 ($97)
Hero ($227.05)
Button ($41)
SB ($209.9)
BB ($212.5)
UTG ($97.9)
UTG+1 ($197)

Preflop: Hero is CO with Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]. SB posts a blind of $1.
5 folds, Hero raises to $6, 2 folds, BB raises to $15, Hero calls $9.

Flop: ($31) 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
BB bets $20, Hero raises to $65

RiverDood · #2 05-10-2005, 08:17 PM

Yes.

What are the killer hands here? 33, 44 and JJ. There are no serious flush or straight possibilities. Given that you raised preflop, he's going to regard it as highly unlikely that you've got 33 or 44.

If your JJ is the only hand that can beat him, your betting is going to seem too fast and too insistent to be taken at face value. And if he's got JJ himself, there's nothing you can do to frighten him.

Let's suppose he has AJ. Then your aggressive bet postflop might be an attempt to represent QQ or better. But his preflop raise feels too big to have been AJ. So the odds are he either has JJ or an overpair: QQ, KK or AA.

If he's got any of those, he's probably willing to gamble his whole stack that you don't have him beat. Especially if he's a tight player who wants to be paid big on his premium hands.

Hooray if you did get him to fold in the face of your aggressive nothing. That's the nerviest play of the week! And he's so shockingly tight/weak that he needs psychiatric attention.

But I'll be startled if you did. With a livelier flop, you might scare him off a very good hand. But a big reraise on this flop is like yelling boo at someone 50 feet in front of you. It's just not very scary.

Aytumious · #3 05-10-2005, 08:22 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Yes.

What are the killer hands here? 33, 44 and JJ. There are no serious flush or straight possibilities. Given that you raised preflop, he's going to regard it as highly unlikely that you've got 33 or 44.

If your JJ is the only hand that can beat him, your betting is going to seem too fast and too insistent to be taken at face value. And if he's got JJ himself, there's nothing you can do to frighten him.

Let's suppose he has AJ. Then your aggressive bet postflop might be an attempt to represent QQ or better. But his preflop raise feels too big to have been AJ. So the odds are he either has JJ or an overpair: QQ, KK or AA.

If he's got any of those, he's probably willing to gamble his whole stack that you don't have him beat. Especially if he's a tight player who wants to be paid big on his premium hands.

Hooray if you did get him to fold in the face of your aggressive nothing. That's the nerviest play of the week! And he's so shockingly tight/weak that he needs psychiatric attention.

But I'll be startled if you did. With a livelier flop, you might scare him off a very good hand. But a big reraise on this flop is like yelling boo at someone 50 feet in front of you. It's just not very scary.

[/ QUOTE ]

Agreed. You are making a read dependent bluff with no read and not much of a draw if he decides to call instead of reraise. Lets say he calls, turn is a blank and he checks to you. Do you follow through on your initial bluff with a huge turn bluff?

jkkkk · #4 05-10-2005, 08:24 PM

suicidal play.

amoeba · #5 05-10-2005, 08:28 PM

I agree with other posters. It doesn't make sense for set of Js, QQ, KK or AA to play this way.

this flop is very harmless.

unless if you think he is so good that he would put in that kind of 3rd level thinking, bluffing like this is not worth it especially if you have been taking it down preflop or on the flop for a while now. And if he is good enough to use that kind of 3rd level thinking, you should probably pick a different table.

RiverDood · #6 05-10-2005, 09:10 PM

Looking at it one more time, there's a chance that your opponent is overplaying AK (probably AKs) . . . and that your big raise at the flop will get him to lay it down.

But that's about the only scenario that saves you. Everything else is suicidal for you.

On balance, it's not worth the gamble.

-Skeme- · #7 05-10-2005, 09:28 PM

I dislike this a lot.

Ghazban · #8 05-11-2005, 09:13 AM

All right, people don't like this, that's fine. I'm not sure I like it, either. However, the detailed responses all seem to put BB squarely on AA-QQ/AK. This I do not agree with. If a guy who's raising a lot of pots and never showing a hand openraises from the CO, the range of hands the BB should reraise with is much, much wider than this.

BZ_Zorro · #9 05-11-2005, 09:39 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Is this a bad time to represent strength

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't see a $20 flop bet representing strength at all. You flat called a large reraise pf, then led out 2/3 pot.

AA or KK usually bets much larger here (30-40). After BB's aggressive pf raise, a set would check this. To me it looks like you hit your AJ.

wtfsvi · #10 05-11-2005, 09:43 AM

<blockquote>Svar på:<hr />
<blockquote>Svar på:<hr />
Is this a bad time to represent strength

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't see a $20 flop bet representing strength at all. You flat called a large reraise pf, then led out 2/3 pot.

AA or KK usually bets much larger here (30-40). After BB's aggressive pf raise, a set would check this. To me it looks like you hit your AJ.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think you've got hero and villain confused. What hero is actually doing, a 2/3 pot raise, shows quite a lot of strength here. I don't like it though, unless he has a read villain's behaviour comes from being tired of being pushed around. If that's my read I will make this play, show my hand, and tighten up.