value betting the river.

phil_ivey_fan · #1 05-09-2005, 10:09 PM

as I've been reviewing the past couple of sessions through pokertracker, I've been noticing that maybe I am not value betting the river enough.

example

UTG+1 ($505.55) -- stats 86 hands (VP$IP:~20, PFR:~1.5)
Hero ($496)

Preflop: Hero is MP3 with Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]. SB posts a blind of $2.
1 fold, UTG+1 calls $4, 2 folds, Hero raises to $17, 5 folds, UTG+1 calls $13.

Flop: ($36) 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
UTG+1 bets $20, Hero raises to $70, UTG+1 calls $50.

Turn: ($176) 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
UTG+1 checks, Hero checks.

River: ($176) 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
UTG+1 checks, Hero checks.

Final Pot: $176

Results in white below: 
UTG+1 has Jh Js (two pair, jacks and fives).
Hero has Qs Qc (two pair, queens and fives).
Outcome: Hero wins $176. 

reasons for not value betting the river. My reads from the UTG limp/call was PocketPair. Then he led the flop I was thinking overpair so I raised to see where I was at. (now thinking back, he prob would have come over the top w/ AA or KK. Then when he checked the river, I was thinking I shoulda bet it...somewhere in the neighborhood of half pot. why would he check the river w/ AA,KK,QQ...or stronger? I'm thinking I would have gotten a call from 88-JJ. Its easy to think through it now but a tricky player w/ a 5, I could see checking raising on the river. bah

One thing I've been working on this past month or so is not betting the river when I'm not going to get a call unless I'm beat (besides a bluff). But when your opponent checks the turn, then checks the (non-threatening) river, shouldn't you value bet it?

maybe someone could enlighten me w/ a little river value betting lesson.

KaneKungFu123 · #2 05-09-2005, 10:14 PM

you might have some luck overbetting in this situation.

[ QUOTE ]
as I've been reviewing the past couple of sessions through pokertracker, I've been noticing that maybe I am not value betting the river enough.

example

UTG+1 ($505.55) -- stats 86 hands (VP$IP:~20, PFR:~1.5)
Hero ($496)

Preflop: Hero is MP3 with Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]. SB posts a blind of $2.
1 fold, UTG+1 calls $4, 2 folds, Hero raises to $17, 5 folds, UTG+1 calls $13.

Flop: ($36) 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
UTG+1 bets $20, Hero raises to $70, UTG+1 calls $50.

Turn: ($176) 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
UTG+1 checks, Hero checks.

River: ($176) 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
UTG+1 checks, Hero checks.

Final Pot: $176

Results in white below: 
UTG+1 has Jh Js (two pair, jacks and fives).
Hero has Qs Qc (two pair, queens and fives).
Outcome: Hero wins $176. 

reasons for not value betting the river. My reads from the UTG limp/call was PocketPair. Then he led the flop I was thinking overpair so I raised to see where I was at. (now thinking back, he prob would have come over the top w/ AA or KK. Then when he checked the river, I was thinking I shoulda bet it...somewhere in the neighborhood of half pot. why would he check the river w/ AA,KK,QQ...or stronger? I'm thinking I would have gotten a call from 88-JJ. Its easy to think through it now but a tricky player w/ a 5, I could see checking raising on the river. bah

One thing I've been working on this past month or so is not betting the river when I'm not going to get a call unless I'm beat (besides a bluff). But when your opponent checks the turn, then checks the (non-threatening) river, shouldn't you value bet it?

maybe someone could enlighten me w/ a little river value betting lesson.

[/ QUOTE ]

amoeba · #3 05-09-2005, 10:49 PM

I like overbet on river. make it look like missed AK clubs.

PoBoy321 · #4 05-09-2005, 11:01 PM

I'm a little curious as to why you didn't bet this turn. Someone else said that you should have made an overbet to make it look like a missed AK [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], but what about the possibility that villain has the flush draw?

Also, what hands are you worried about on the river that beat you? Can you see this villain limp-calling a hand with a 3, a 5? What about A2 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]? I think that you can safely value bet this river since the only hand I can logically see beating you are quads.

phil_ivey_fan · #5 05-10-2005, 12:28 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I'm a little curious as to why you didn't bet this turn. Someone else said that you should have made an overbet to make it look like a missed AK [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], but what about the possibility that villain has the flush draw?

Also, what hands are you worried about on the river that beat you? Can you see this villain limp-calling a hand with a 3, a 5? What about A2 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]? I think that you can safely value bet this river since the only hand I can logically see beating you are quads.

[/ QUOTE ]

can't remember what I was thinking, but for some reason I really wanted to put him on a slow AA. I was burned earlier in the session (another table though) where a UTG limped w/ AA, then smoothed my LatePos KK raise. For some reason I was weary of a strong hand. Like I said, looking back on it now it is much easier to see that a river bet is necessary.

I agree w/ the over bet strategy. I do like this play against certain players and certain boards.

thanx for the replies.