Pocket Jacks and Queens on a low board

[DaveduFresne]

Hi,

I feel really stupid that I cannot find a solution to this on my own, but being that I keep getting in trouble with the same play, I think its time to see if someone has some unique ideas I haven't thought of.

As I've stated before I play on a fairly tight site (Prima) and only play full ring games.

I don't have a specific hand history, but here is where I usually get in trouble.

I am in late position with Queens or Jacks. The pot is limped in by quite a lot of people before me. Not wanting a lot of limpers against a medium pair, I raise between 6 to 8x the BB.

This raise usually works pretty well, giving me one caller or two.

Actually let me give you a rough hand history (is there any easy way to find these on prima?)

Six limpers.

I am on button and make it 8X bb

One caller (UTG I believe) and no reads him on him (never played with him before.)

Flop comes 1086 two spades.

UTG Checks

I bet pot

UTG Calls

Turn is a 3 of Clubs

UTG Checks again

I put him on spades and go all in (had sixty percent of my stack left after flop bet so was kind of an overbet)

Showdown he has a set of tens.

Am I getting myself in trouble with the big preflop raise? I always bet the pot, so the more money in preflop the more committed I get to a hand on the flop and thereafter.

I generally don't slow down with an overpair unless a player gives me an indication I'm beaten. (If the pot is headsup with no overcards).

So, basically UTG played his hand pretty well, and got me to trap myself. What would you have done differently here?

Thanks,

David

[stu-unger]

i dont think u played the hand badly. If u are getting beat with over pairs a lot its because your over playing them, and that's easy to do. when u have them and have showed such strength u probably should slow down after getting smooth called on the flop. Most times a smooth call is more dangerous than a raise. i like a check on the turn because your either a huge favorite or a huge dog. it also may save you on the river because youve showed some weakness. And when putting all your chips in u must realize with good opponents youll only get a call when your beat. try and not stick opponents on a hand like a draw and stick to betting the size of the pot its the right bet like 90% of the time.

[vapourtrail]

hi david,

my feeling is that a lot depends on your read of the player. will he call a pot sized bet on the flop with just a flush draw? top pair on the flop? there are some players that i continue to push on the turn with just an overpair, and there are some players where i basically immediately shut down when called.

the thing to remember though, is that if there is no straight or flush possible on the flop and turn, and a pot sized bet on flop and turn sets you all-in, you can't be making TOO much of a mistake. it is 8:1 or so to hit a set with an underpair against you, and this is about the implied odds he is getting. So, even if he folds EVERYTIME he misses his set, and you go all-in everytime he hits, it will be near null EV for both of you.

Therefore, I think this is a good standard line to take against an unknown opponent who you suspect might not be such as solid player. you might double against a player who takes TP/TK too far, or a "gambling" player chasing a flush. even if you do run into the set, there is still some hidden value in showing the table that when you play, you are willing to play for all your chips - they will be more afraid to call your flop bets, because they will be all the more sure that your next move is going to be an all-in bet that they cannot call.

anyone care to comment ?

[NiceCatch]

Queens and Jacks are not the hands you want to back with all your money at a full table. You could have been up against Aces and Kings as well. When you put in an 8xBB raise preflop, you're going to usually be up against quality hands (i.e. PP's or AK)... if you know for sure that a bad player likes to call with crap, then you can try to spike the pot. Good players calling pot-sized bets on the flop is a good indication to slow down.

[DaveduFresne]

Like I said I had never played with the guy before, so I had no read. However, I did make the assumption that he did not have Aces or Kings because he first limped UTG and then simply called my 8XBB Raise.

I think even with his set he was taking a pretty big chance, but with an overpair I think it would have been close to insane to play it the way he did with that particular board.

David

[DaveduFresne]

Do you really think online players are observant enough that any "advertising" in the play was worthwhile?

Btw, this hand occurred over the weekend, which affected my line, because there are idiots on over the weekend that will call potsized bets even to make a five high flush.

The regulars will not make a play like this obviosly.

David

[vapourtrail]

[ QUOTE ]
Do you really think online players are observant enough that any "advertising" in the play was worthwhile?


[/ QUOTE ]

depends, on the stakes, but yes.

[nokona13]

5 high flush sounds like the nuts to me...

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