KJo Limp gone wrong, but then got interesting...

chadplusplus · #1 05-02-2005, 04:17 PM

I didn't have any reads on these guys, but this is primarily an implied odds question, so I'm thinking that reads are irrelevant if you have a draw to the nuts.

Party Poker 0.5/1 Hold'em (10 handed) converter

Preflop: Bumbling Fool is UTG with J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
Bumbling Fool calls, UTG+1 raises, 3 folds, MP3 3-bets, 4 folds, Bumbling Fool caps, UTG+1 calls $1 (All-In), MP3 calls.

I usually fold with this UTG, and this hand illustrates why. But, this table had been pretty passive preflop, so I felt I could limp safely here. So besides the limp...

The cap here was an unsuccesful attempt at getting HU against the raiser. Is my intuition correct here? I want to isolate with KJo because its best value is in spiking a pair. Consequently, I want to face as few opponents as possible? Or, does the fact that I may be dominated reduce me to just calling? I should have known that UTG+1 was going to call the cap if he had already raised from that position.

Flop: (13.50 SB) 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (3 players, 1 all-in)
Bumbling Fool checks, MP3 bets, Bumbling Fool calls.

6 overs, 8-1 on my overs, 14-1 pot odds. Easy call, but no raise because I'm behind on equity and the third guy was all-in, so no reason to try to knock him out. But hypothetically, if he wasn't all-in, a raise still wouldn't be appropriate here because with a pot this size, no one's going anywhere anyway, right?

Turn: (7.75 BB) A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (3 players, 1 all-in)
Bumbling Fool checks, MP3 bets, Bumbling Fool?

Here, I'm thinking that I'm 11-1 or so to make the gut shot. Currently getting 9-1 to call. But I figure the way this guy has been betting into me, I'll be able to check/raise the river if I connect and get the other 2 BB out of him to get my implied odds. So what do you guys do here?

davelin · #2 05-02-2005, 04:19 PM

The pre-flop play here makes me ill. I see two opportunities to fold here.

On the flop, how can you give yourself full outs on your overs? You spike a J, I'm 98% sure you're still behind.

atnels · #3 05-02-2005, 04:23 PM

Chip.
Spewing.

You realize that all of your overcard outs are probably tainted, right?

The fact that you said this was a passive table should suggest to you that all the preflop action isn't a fluke - these guys might have something.

I muck this most of the time UTG, but when it's 2 bets back to you you HAVE to throw this away. KJo is terrible in this situation.

If it was just you and the player who was going all-in and you think he's just being LAGgy for fun before he goes out, then I guess you can see what happens, but I think you are WAY behind on the flop.

MechanoMan · #4 05-02-2005, 04:47 PM

I fold KJo UTG. Even if I made a loose call, I fold when it's two back to me. KJo isn't strong enough to take on two raisers.
On the flop your overcards are worth nowhere near 6 outs. 3 outs is standard, and against two preflop raisers I think even 3 is generous.

</GRUNCHING>

@bsolute_luck · #5 05-02-2005, 05:04 PM

okay, as already stated, the preflop stuff was horrific. but, if you're going to limp/cap, i'd try to bluff.

what do others think you have? probably AA or KK or a big hand at least. it will be expensive, but let's be honest...your preflop play has already made KJo too expensive [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img] what REALLY sux is you have no reads, so you don't even know if the fool will fold. oh well, good luck with that.

numeri · #6 05-02-2005, 05:09 PM

[ QUOTE ]
The cap here was an unsuccesful attempt at getting HU against the raiser. Is my intuition correct here? I want to isolate with KJo because its best value is in spiking a pair. Consequently, I want to face as few opponents as possible? Or, does the fact that I may be dominated reduce me to just calling?

[/ QUOTE ]
I think this part is the most troublesome. Why would you want to isolate a pre-flop 3-bettor on a passive table? You're correct that KJo gets its best value from spiking top pair, but that's if you have position and you put the raise. It's the gap principle - you have to have a much better hand to call a raise than to put one in yourself.

As others have said, it's a bad limp UTG at any table, (look in PT if you use it) and when it comes 2 back to you, you absolutely need to fold.

irishpint · #7 05-02-2005, 05:31 PM

on to the actual hand. it sucks that you're in it, etc. but i think you wanted to know what to do? well you have the pot odds to continue. if you hit your queen it'll be worth a lot, since you're check raising the mother on the river. otherwise fold. if its a king i guess id check/call but im pretty sure you're a loser but this pot is pretty big.

gopnik · #8 05-02-2005, 05:36 PM

I'd probably fold twice preflop and once on the flop. Does not matter what you do on the turn since it's a border line.

chadplusplus · #9 05-02-2005, 05:36 PM

Thaks for your replies. Actually, the biggest preflop revelation I've had in the last month was realizing that KJo sucks in EP. I don't know why I played this hand preflop when I usually fold it here. For whatever reason, I decided to play this hand preflop and I realize now, just as I did then, that it was a mistake.

We've all been there, you're at the bar, its late, you're drunk, and there's that girl in the corner... she's not the prettiest girl in the room (she's no AK), but she might just do. But as you walk over to her, the little voice in the back of your head is screaming: "DUDE!! She's the size of your car!! (She's only a KJo)" But man she looks goot right there and then and so you ignore that voice all the way to the river and wake up the next day with nothing but a hangover and a broken pelvis. (Who said I can't mix metaphors?!)

Flop, I continued to misread my outs. I somehow missed the fact that my outs were probably tainted. Still working on that part of my game.

I'm still curious about the Turn play tho. Once I lucked into the nut straight gut shot, was it worth it to continue? Or did I already spew enough here?

@bsolute_luck · #10 05-02-2005, 05:47 PM

hahah your turn play....hell, you've blown enough chips here, what's one more? you'll fold if you miss the river anyways. might as well see if luck is on your side eh?