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  #1  
Old 04-19-2005, 10:46 AM
Vee Quiva Vee Quiva is offline
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Default Strategic Error in Harrington On Hold\'em

I don't agree with this strategy in the hand example 2-6 starting on page 75. Here is the text:

You are on the button with $3440 in chips and the chip leader in single table tournament. You have Ace-Queen offsuit. Blinds are $50-100.
First 2 players fold. Player C with $1600 calls 100. C is an aggressive player. Player D with $630 calls 100. D is a conservative player. Action is to you.

Harrington recommends raising and I agree. Here is where the advice becomes debatable.

He assumes that you just raise 2x the blind to 200. The Small Blind who started the hand with $320 goes all in for his last $270. The Big Blind folds. Players C and D call the additional $220. The pot is now $1260 and action is to you. It costs $120 to call. What do you do?

Here is Harrington's answer:
[ QUOTE ]
"The small blind is now in the main pot with whatever he has. Players C and D have both been given two opportunities to raise, and neither has done so. Few players have the patience and sheer cold-bloodedness to slowplay a big pair through two raises at the table. You have to assume that both are nursing small pairs or drawing hands.

Now is the time to strike and go all-in. You'll almost certainly knock out Player C. Just because you've characterized a player as "aggressive" doesn't mean he has a death wish. Your're forcing him to put his whole stack in jeopardy against a player who has raised him twice. That's not likely. Player D might call you in the side pot since he'll have only $300 left if he folds. But that's all right, since you're a favorite if he holds a drawing hand, and at worst you're a slight underdog if he holds a small pair.

If you can knock out both Players C and D with this move, you've gained a huge amount of equity. At that point you'll have invested $325 for a shot at a pot of $1,275 where you're almost certainly a favorite."

[/ QUOTE ]

Here's my opinion on this:
First of all I would give the small blind a little more credit for a good hand here. He has seen a raise in front of him. If he wants to he can wait 5 more hands for free for a better opportunity to go all in.

Also you know a raise will be called by D and he only has $300 more to win left in his stack. Why risk getting called by player C?

I think the better strategy would be to call the raise and hopefully check down the hand. You have one player all in and another player is will be all in if another bet is made. There is nothing to win in the side pot so why bother betting to create one?

Plus going all in is only going to narrow the field by 1. Not much of an advantage.
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  #2  
Old 04-19-2005, 10:50 AM
citanul citanul is offline
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Default Re: Strategic Error in Harrington On Hold\'em

you didn't tell us what hero has.

citanul
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  #3  
Old 04-19-2005, 10:56 AM
Bluff Daddy Bluff Daddy is offline
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Default Re: Strategic Error in Harrington On Hold\'em

hero has A [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]Q [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], but he read it wrong harrington says "you should raise, and raise strongly, to around $400." In this particular scenario the player only minraised to $200 just to clarify that Harrington does not say you should minraise.
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  #4  
Old 04-19-2005, 10:58 AM
Vee Quiva Vee Quiva is offline
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Default Re: Strategic Error in Harrington On Hold\'em

It's fixed in original post. Hero has Ace Queen off suit.
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  #5  
Old 04-19-2005, 10:59 AM
Vee Quiva Vee Quiva is offline
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Default Re: Strategic Error in Harrington On Hold\'em

Yes I mentioned that I agree with the strong raise.

My problem is with the all in move after the reraise by the small blind.
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  #6  
Old 04-19-2005, 11:17 AM
swarm swarm is offline
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Default Re: Strategic Error in Harrington On Hold\'em

I just think this scenario is unlikely in terms of what D does.

It's a great information move if D's stack was a little deeper. I am always suspicious of why someone with 6BB is limping.

Given his scenario (how opponnents played hands) I think that Harrington's play is correct.

C and D don't have anything to write home about. SB could be all in with anything resembling a decent hand. I wouldn't put much stock in his hand either. If I was SB I would be jumping in with any 2 in case I struck gold and hit my cards in this big money pot I would be back in the game.

As chip leader you want to get rid of the one player that can make you put more chips in the pot. By moving all in you are in actuality protecting 1000 chips within your stack. I would bet Player C will fold to a second raise from the same player with 2 other players already all in 90%+ of the time. It's a great move.
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  #7  
Old 04-19-2005, 11:23 AM
swarm swarm is offline
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Default Re: Strategic Error in Harrington On Hold\'em

Having AQ is a great hand in this situation! SB is going to be all in with any ace, why are you so scared of the SB?

AQ is even more reason to push as you want the full 5 cards to draw out to your overcards. Get Player C and his remaining 1400 in chips out of the hand that could make life hell for you on the flop if he hits and you don't. He's not going to call an all in here.
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  #8  
Old 04-19-2005, 11:32 AM
Nottom Nottom is offline
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Default Re: Strategic Error in Harrington On Hold\'em

I don't aggre that the shortstack needs a strong hand here.

If I had a hand like JTs and saw a multiway pot developing giving me a chance to quadruple up, I would often gamble it up in that spot.
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  #9  
Old 04-19-2005, 11:44 AM
pokerlaw pokerlaw is offline
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Default Re: Strategic Error in Harrington On Hold\'em

[ QUOTE ]
I don't aggre that the shortstack needs a strong hand here.

If I had a hand like JTs and saw a multiway pot developing giving me a chance to quadruple up, I would often gamble it up in that spot.

[/ QUOTE ]

agreed.
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  #10  
Old 04-19-2005, 01:33 PM
AA suited AA suited is offline
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Default Re: Strategic Error in Harrington On Hold\'em

- player c, an aggressive player with a big stack, limps in, then just calls the small raise by sb.

alarm bells ring. aggressive players do not usually just limp in. just calling the sb's all-in tells me he's confident about a 4-way pot.

- player d, a conservative player w/a small stack, limps in and just calls a min raise by sb.

the limp screams monster. the call to a min raise w/300 chips left after player c calls tells me he's a fish. it's not like player C will fold for 300 more chips.

if this was a 50+5, i would just do the standard when a player is all-in and there is a zero/small side pot. I would just call and check it down the river if the flop doesnt help me. if player D goes all-in, i'll call. if player C bets, i fold.

i'm not desparate for the chips, and want as much help as possible to eliminate the sb if the board doesnt help me.

harrington's play might be correct for the 215's where the blinds are calling your raises, or you're the blind and call a raise. either way, there's post flop play. thus you need all the chips you can get.
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