Another Raising Question

[Ironman]

Hi Guys,

Tonight I was playing at a loose .5/1 table over at UB. The table VPIP was 50...so I HAD to sit down. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

I was in middle position and dealt A [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 2 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 3 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] X [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

In my case the "X" was an 8. I thought about raising but in the end decided that even though it was a strong hand, it really needed some help to become a two way hand.

In your opinion, what does "X" need to be in order to raise in middle position.

Thanks,

Ironman Dave

[Mr_J]

"In your opinion, what does "X" need to be in order to raise in middle position."

For me (meaning this view might be totally wrong) it depends how many are in the pot. If there's action ahead of me I raise, if not I call. At .5/1 I'm guessing that if they are prepared to limp, most of the time they'll be prepared to call a raise?

[grandgnu]

I'd likely want to keep more people in the pot, since you figure to have the nut low should those cards come.

Yes, there's the chance of being quartered, but that doesn't hurt so bad if there are 6-8 people in the pot (especially many of them chasing lows with hands like 4/5 or 5/6 or A/7)

And with the flush draw possibility as well, I'd probably just call. If I'm late position and there are a lot of limpers, I'd raise to build the pot. But mid-position, I don't want to drive out people who will pay me off.

I guess to really answer your question, if the "X" was another Ace or a King, I might consider a raise, depending on if I think that people are going to put it in.

[Buzz]

[ QUOTE ]
In your opinion, what does "X" need to be in order to raise in middle position.

[/ QUOTE ]

Dave - I think probably the thing to do at the .5/1 limit is to raise with your hand, regardless of the rank of the diamond X.

The worst diamond you could have as a fourth card here is the eight. (The best is obviously the ace). But even with the eight of diamonds, you have a hand strong enough (at any limits) to raise - if you choose to raise.

How will your raise affect your opponents? If they won’t play any differently than they would have played without the raise, then sure, go ahead and raise - even with the eight. However, if the raise will affect their play on this betting round, or on a subsequent betting round, then, in my humble opinion, consider what that effect might be. There are lots of possibilities here, depending on how your various opponents play.

I’d guess that at the .5/1 limit, you’re probably not up against very expert players (to say the least). Therefore, I think you raise with double suited A23Xd, regardless of the rank of X.

However if you’re in a game with me, when you raise here, I’m going to wonder why you’re raising - and I’m going to try to work it out. You can mix up your play and make it difficult or impossible for me to put you on cards. You can play one way for a while and then change gears and confuse me, causing me to make a mistake. But whenever you raise (or even call, but especially raise) I’m going to try to put you on cards or some reason for raising. I may not be successful, but I’ll be trying - and however clever I am at putting you on cards or a reason for raising, I believe some of my opponents are better at it than I am.

Yes, your hand is strong enough to raise, but at least at higher limits you may get more out of your opponents on this hand (and on future hands) if you don’t always raise with A23Xd - or if you do always raise with it, if you often raise with various other hands.

I don’t know about .5/1 limits, but at higher limits, what to do here depends more on your opponents than on the exact rank of the diamond X. You have to play good poker.

Always limping with this hand is not playing good poker. Always raising with it, unless you are playing very weak opponents, or unless you also raise often enough with various other hands, is not playing good poker either.

Just my opinion.

Buzz

[MikeR]

[ QUOTE ]

However if you’re in a game with me, when you raise here, I’m going to wonder why you’re raising - and I’m going to try to work it out.Buzz

[/ QUOTE ]
I've found in the .50/1.00 games, the majority of players are raising with A2xx, regardless of XX. I've done ok by reraising with 23 and a high pocket pair. I can easily lay it down, but these players will continue to bet and call even when counterfeited.

[GooperMC]

This is usually a raise for me as well. What will make me not raise this hand?

1) If there are only a few limpers.

2) If the players behind me are tightish. If they have a VP$IP > 50 or < 20 if they were going to limp they will probably call a raise. However if you look left and see 4 players with 35 VP$IP I might limp to try and encourage these players to come with.

3) If there is someone behind be who loves to raise pre-flop. Every once in a while I have sat with someone who raises every other hand. In this situation I will limp to him then 3 bet if he raises. I have noticed that .5/1 players will almost always call a raise if they have limped, however they will not always call a 3 bet. Likewise players who call a raise (2 bets) will almost always call a cap and when an aggressive players 2 bets he will almost always cap. With a manic to your left if you limp, he raises, you 3 bet, and he caps, you will build a monster pot with out loosing too many opponents which is perfect for your hand.

[Alchemist]

[ QUOTE ]

I've found in the .50/1.00 games, the majority of players are raising with A2xx, regardless of XX. I've done ok by reraising with 23 and a high pocket pair. I can easily lay it down, but these players will continue to bet and call even when counterfeited.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's maddening to see people reraise every street with the nut low only and no high when it's obvious at least one other person has A2. Meanwhile the lock high hand happily keeps hitting Raise. And you see it ALL the time.

WRT the OP's question, I'd raise any X. Once I see A2s3 I'm putting a raise in.

[grandgnu]

For those complaining about people re-raising with the A/2 nut low:

1. There are MANY terrible players who will be in there with A/4 low thinking their hand is good.

2. If the pot is multi-way and you've got 5-8 players sticking around, getting quartered for the low isn't so bad.

Now, if you're up against strong players, the pot isn't too large or there aren't many players in the hand, then I believe it's a bad idea to keep raising with just the nut low

[toots]

To modify what Alchemist said:

yeah, it doesn't bother me to see the other obvious nut low raising on the turn when there are still two or three chasers contributing, but when the obvious low gets into a raising war with the obvious high on the river after everyone else has folded, it really drives me nuts to own the other 25%.

I mean, yeah, we get it. You got a low. Why give more of both of our stacks to the guy with the high?

On the other hand, I just love running into one of these guys when I have the high, and I really, really love these guys when I have both.

[Alchemist]

[ QUOTE ]
For those complaining about people re-raising with the A/2 nut low:

1. There are MANY terrible players who will be in there with A/4 low thinking their hand is good.


[/ QUOTE ]
True

[ QUOTE ]

2. If the pot is multi-way and you've got 5-8 players sticking around, getting quartered for the low isn't so bad.


[/ QUOTE ]
I agree, it can sometimes be a fine line whether to raise or just call depending on the number of players left and the action up to that point. Although it should be obvious, particularly if there's only 3 of you left at the river and all you have is A2, and one person has been raising the whole way and the other auto-calling, that you're just gonna quarter (or sixth) yourself and the other low.

I had a hand about a week ago where I had nut-nut and the two players on either side of me kept reraising my raises. I happily took 2/3 of the pot. Even people who weren't in the pot flamed the guys who got sixthed. [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]