Did I suck out like a fish?

[Rich P.]

Here's a hand I played recently. I don't remember all the details, so please bare with me. Here's how I remember the hand:

4-8 game. I have a 3c up and look down and find a pair of fours in the pocket. The game is seven handed and I'm the bring-in. I bring it in for $1.

I look around the board and all the face cards are out.

44/3 Me
xx/Q
xx/J
XX/K
xx/Q
xx/A
xx/K

The suits aren't relevant here, but they are almost all black.

The Q call, and the J completed the bet. All fold around to me. I put the J on a pair. Normally, I would fold this hand, but because all the face cards came out, I decided to call. The Q called behind me.

On the next hand I get a 4 giving me two pair. The Q pulls a blank, and the J get a K. I bet the full bet. The Q calls, and the J raises.

I think to myself that the K is dead. I decide he may be trying for a free card.

On fifth street I pull a blank, the Queen pulls a blank, and the J pulls an Ace. I'm worried about the ace, but I still think the hand's dead. I bet again, the Q call and the J raises.

Opps. I think I must now be beat, but my cards are still live and his are dead. Maybe I will hit the three or four, preferably the four, since they are live and my two opponents are unlikely to hold them. I look down at the pot and see that it has gotten fairly big. I don't do an exact calculation of the odds, but I later figure it's 10 to 1, and the pot is offering me close to $80.00 if not more. I call.

Lucky for me, the 3 falls, giving me a full house. Both of my opponents got was appeared to be blanks, but, surprisingly, both opponents call.

I bet my full house of the river thinking they were unlikely to have beat my hand but concerned that they would only call with a better hand. The J called and showed down trip Jacks. He had been rolled up.

Did I suck out just like a fish? Or was my play remotely reasonable?

[Marco Trevix]

You made a mistake illustrating your hand. On 4th you cannot hit a 4 since your hand would have been a marvellous trips of fours. And if you hit a 3 you had a paired doorcard and the play dramatically changed.

Marco

[Andy B]

What's the ante in this game? And does the drop come out right away? If you're anteing $.50, I'd probably fold on third street. If you're anteing $1 and they aren't taking $4 off the top, then I'd call on third. If you ante $1 and they take $4 off the top, um, I don't know, but I'd probably fold. The J raised into a bunch of dead cards, but there already was a limper, and there was a live Ace left to act. He probably has a little something.

I presume that you caught a 3 on fourth street. That would give you two pair and enable you to bet full price. When JK raises, do you really think he's going for a free card? First of all, this $4/8. I've played some $4/8 stud in my day, and I can't remember seeing too many free card raises. Secondly, about the only hand I can think of that would make this raise is (QT)JK. Did this guy really raise with (QT)J on third street with dead straight cards and four overcards left to act? I'm not saying you should necessarily fold to his raise, but I'd say that it's somewhat likely that you're behind. You have four outs to improve, and two little pair is unlikely to stand up against two opponents, one of whom is showing strength. In any case, my impression is that you were looking for an excuse to play.

So based on your optimistic read, you bet out on fifth street. He raises again. I think he's saying he's got two small pair beaten, perhaps badly. Between him and the other guy, one of them is very likely to have you beaten by the river. Unfortunately, I think the pot's probably too big to fold.

Obviously you bet when you make your hand. You got yourself into an uncomfortable situation because of a dubious call on third street. You put a lot of money in with far the worst of it. Now if the other guy only had a pair of Jacks it wouldn't have been so bad. In that case, a re-raise on fourth street might have gotten the Queen out to give you a better chance of winning. I think, however, that most $4/8 players who make that fourth street raise already have you beaten, so you may as well keep the Queen in and hope he pays you off if you hit.

I've had rolled-up trips sucked out on enough that I don't apologize when I run the other guy down. Nice hand.

[img]/forums/images/icons/smile.gif[/img] If you caught a 3 making 2 pr on fourth st you are 3.5-1 to fill up [img]/forums/images/icons/mad.gif[/img] you are getting 2-1 and you pr your door card so so the jack or queen should have had trips or both them have prs plus. on fourth street to keep playing I think you should have folded becasue you would have to fillup to win agaist 2 larger prs. but that poker [img]/forums/images/icons/grin.gif[/img] ps when the jack raised the q what did you think he had? [img]/forums/images/icons/blush.gif[/img]

[Rich P.]

[Rich P.]

You are all right. My only excuse for playing was that my cards were live, there cards were dead, I was the forced bring-in, and I didn't fear a raise behind me. I actually don't remember the exact cards that were out, so I made it up. There may have even been a jack out making me think both their hands were dead. Then, they keep drawing blanks and dead cards. Of course, if I knew he had rolled up trip jacks, I would have folded right away. I made a misjudgment. I thought my two pair were the best hand at that time, and because their hands were dead, they were less likely to improve.

I have recently been re-reading 7CSFAP, and early in the book they state that some hands may be playable against a bigger pair. Here I had a hidden live pair with a straight draw. I was the forced bring it, so I already had 1/4 of the bet put in. The ante is $1, but they take a $4.50 rake right away. So while it would have been reasonable to fold on third street, I called do to the above factors. What that enough?

On fourth street I caught two pair. Thinking that I'm now ahead, and that at least one would fold, I bet the full 8. When I got raised, I realized he had a hand, but I might still have him beat at that moment and my had was still live while his was still dead. Was I just looking for an excuse to continue?

I don't actually remember whether I bet, called, or check-raised on fifth street. I don't think I would have just called with my hand, so I probably check raised in an attempt to knock out the player between us only to get reraised after the player between us cold called a double big bet. Now I'm definately praying to full up.

When I do fill-up, I still get two calls. I know I'm ahead when they just call, but I can't put them on any hand that could beat mine. I then had to put the initial raiser on trips and the caller on at least two pair.

Now was my bet on then end correct. I figure it less then fifty-fifty he filled up being his cards were dead.

[Andy B]

If there is only $3.50 in ante money before the action starts, I think you have a clear fold on third street.

You make an open pair and bet the maximum. The other guy raises. What do you figure he has? I think that a raise from most low limit players in this spot represents a hand that has two little pair beaten, perhaps badly. Sometimes, he'll have two bigger pair, and even with one of his cards out, he's a three-to-one favorite, and you're out of position for the rest of the hand. Obviously, if he has a set, you're in trouble.

I think a check-raise on fifth to get the Queen out only makes sense if you think you have the best hand. If you're still drawing, you want him in to pay you off if you hit, I think. I really don't think that there's much chance that Fours-up is best.

I think that you have a clear value bet on the end, as you're likely to get paid off in at least one spot, and possibly two. You do run the risk of running into a raise which you'll have to pay off, but as you say, their boat cards are somewhat dead.

At least you were playing live cards.

His cards aren't dead and never were! He had the only jack on board! What cards do you think are dead? Then he catches an ace and there was only one other ace out on third street. Those cards are hardly dead enough to make you screw around with two pair the way you did. If you can't get your baby two pair heads up, which should have been clearly obvious during the fifth street action, you should just try to get to the river as cheap as possible or lay it down. That guy had you crushed on almost all the streets. You would have been decimated if you didn't catch, now at some point in the hand you may have actually given yourself the odds you needed by your ridiculous previous action, but I think we all know that the results don't justify the means.

[Rich P.]

I don't actually remeber the other cards out exactly. All I really remember was that they were dead. Still, what you all say is true.

[Dick in Phoenix]

I think you got blinded by all that paint on 3rd st. It makes a big difference whether a live jack raises or a partially-dead queen raises. After the raise, it doesn't matter that the other cards were all honors.

In your later posts, you indicate that you are not sure whether the jack was fully live or not. You need to work on your observation and memory on 3rd street, so you KNOW. As the other posters have already said so well, you have no business taking a pair of 4s against a represented live pair of jacks.

I have learned to use Roy West's method; it's not hard. Make it a point to remember each FOLDED card, then put them in order. In your hand, I would be repeating mentally, "Q-Q-K-K ... Q-Q-K-K ..." (or whatever they were; I don't remember exactly who stayed except for the jack). You don't have to remember non-folded cards since you can still see them.