selective passivity out of the BB

cnfuzzd · #1 04-15-2005, 08:44 AM

Button is super donk. other two are little donklings. Serious. Thats my read.

Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (9 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is BB with 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
3 folds, MP2 calls, 1 fold, CO calls, Button calls, 1 fold, Hero checks.

Flop: (4.33 SB) 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (4 players)
Hero checks, MP2 checks, CO checks, Button bets, Hero calls, MP2 folds, CO folds.

Turn: (3.16 BB) A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, Button bets, Hero calls.

River: (5.16 BB) K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, Button bets, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 7.16 BB
Main Pot: 7.16 BB, between Hero and Button.

thoughts?

for the record, i thought about checkraising the river, but decided that was pushing it too far.

peace

john nickle

adamstewart · #2 04-15-2005, 08:48 AM

Hmmmm.......

I'm wondering why you didn't raise the flop?

Regarless, I would have led the turn (fold to a raise).

Adam

Carmine · #3 04-15-2005, 09:01 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Hmmmm.......

I'm wondering why you didn't raise the flop?

Regarless, I would have led the turn (fold to a raise).

Adam

[/ QUOTE ]

Isn't the problem of folding to a turn raise that we miss the opportunity to hit our flush draw. Not the best draw in the world but still another way to win.

elindauer · #4 04-15-2005, 09:07 AM

With this highly vulnerable hand, you must raise the flop if you choose to play.

Good luck.
Eric

adamstewart · #5 04-15-2005, 09:27 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Hmmmm.......

I'm wondering why you didn't raise the flop?

Regarless, I would have led the turn (fold to a raise).

Adam

[/ QUOTE ]

Isn't the problem of folding to a turn raise that we miss the opportunity to hit our flush draw. Not the best draw in the world but still another way to win.

[/ QUOTE ]

To be honest, I didn't notice the flush draw when I initially read the hand.

In this situation, if Hero led the turn, and was raised, he'd be getting 6:1 to call. He has 9 outs to a flush, but we should discount them to about 4 outs for the times he makes the flush but still loses to a higher flush, or boat, or quads.

I don't give any outs for the Hero hitting an 8, as I feel that would be negligable given the overpaired Kings on board.

I give 1 out for hitting one of the two 3 threes.

That gives us 5 effective outs. Not enough to call a turn raise.

Note: the pot odds would be slightly different had Hero raised the flop, but I still don't think it would work out the enough to call a turn raise.

Adam

chesspain · #6 04-15-2005, 09:29 AM

[ QUOTE ]
With this highly vulnerable hand, you must raise the flop if you choose to play.

[/ QUOTE ]

With emphasis on "if."

Piiop · #7 04-15-2005, 09:50 AM

If you checkraised the river, and he called you and showed something like Q9 - that would be sweet.

Carmine · #8 04-15-2005, 09:55 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Hmmmm.......

I'm wondering why you didn't raise the flop?

Regarless, I would have led the turn (fold to a raise).

Adam

[/ QUOTE ]

Isn't the problem of folding to a turn raise that we miss the opportunity to hit our flush draw. Not the best draw in the world but still another way to win.

[/ QUOTE ]

To be honest, I didn't notice the flush draw when I initially read the hand.

In this situation, if Hero led the turn, and was raised, he'd be getting 6:1 to call. He has 9 outs to a flush, but we should discount them to about 4 outs for the times he makes the flush but still loses to a higher flush, or boat, or quads.

I don't give any outs for the Hero hitting an 8, as I feel that would be negligable given the overpaired Kings on board.

I give 1 out for hitting one of the two 3 threes.

That gives us 5 effective outs. Not enough to call a turn raise.

Note: the pot odds would be slightly different had Hero raised the flop, but I still don't think it would work out the enough to call a turn raise.

Adam

[/ QUOTE ]

Oh, I agree he doesn't have odds to call a turn raise. I meant just C/call the turn being the [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] fell. Only because of the way Hero played it so far. I would have preferred to raise the flop THEN lead the turn. Now you could say that by C/R the turn (being he didn't raise flop)Hero is representing an A. Problem is Villian could have easily bet the flop with Ace high.

The more I write the more I realize we're not looking so good here. Villian's likely holdings:
Ace= Bad
K = Bad
PP = Bad
What else except a pure bluff?

Without raising the flop we have no option but to play passively and try for the flush and if the turn ace had been another other flavor we fold right there. unless you can assign villians a large % that he is bluffing.

Is my thinking flawed here??

EDIT: Well I guess by C/R the turn and representing an A or K we could POSSIBLY push Villian off a PP.

adamstewart · #9 04-15-2005, 09:56 AM

[ QUOTE ]
If you checkraised the river, and he called you and showed something like Q9 - that would be sweet.

[/ QUOTE ]

nh [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

adamstewart · #10 04-15-2005, 09:57 AM

Ace is a scare card.

Leading the turn may win the pot right there.

Adam