My instincts: Responding to aggression with more aggression

FlopMe · #1 04-05-2005, 10:24 PM

Since I 8-table I rarely slow down and ponder my decisions. I usually run off of instinct in situations like this, and usually my instincts are to come over the top. I'm certain my hand moved my mouse over the "Raise" button and squeezed the trigger without me telling it to. But, what is correct?

I have no prior hands/reads on MP2. He has been at the table for 7 hands and hasn't played one yet.

Party Poker 0.5/1 Hold'em (8 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is Button with 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
1 fold, UTG+1 calls, 1 fold, MP2 calls, CO calls, Hero calls, SB completes, BB raises, UTG+1 calls, MP2 calls, CO calls, Hero calls, SB folds.

Dump to the raise here? Don't play at all? I like to play suited 1-gappers from the button with 3+limpers.

Flop: (11 SB) 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (5 players)
BB checks, UTG+1 bets, MP2 calls, CO calls, Hero raises, BB folds, UTG+1 calls, MP2 calls, CO calls.

Standard raise right?

Turn: (9.50 BB) 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (4 players)
UTG+1 checks, MP2 checks, CO checks, Hero bets, UTG+1 folds, MP2 raises, CO folds, Hero 3-bets, MP2 caps, Hero calls.

I pondered what to do here exactly 0 seconds. Should I have folded to the check-raise? Called down?

Aaron W. · #2 04-06-2005, 12:54 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Since I 8-table I rarely slow down and ponder my decisions. I usually run off of instinct in situations like this, and usually my instincts are to come over the top. I'm certain my hand moved my mouse over the "Raise" button and squeezed the trigger without me telling it to. But, what is correct?

I have no prior hands/reads on MP2. He has been at the table for 7 hands and hasn't played one yet.

Party Poker 0.5/1 Hold'em (8 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is Button with 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
1 fold, UTG+1 calls, 1 fold, MP2 calls, CO calls, Hero calls, SB completes, BB raises, UTG+1 calls, MP2 calls, CO calls, Hero calls, SB folds.

Dump to the raise here? Don't play at all? I like to play suited 1-gappers from the button with 3+limpers.

Flop: (11 SB) 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (5 players)
BB checks, UTG+1 bets, MP2 calls, CO calls, Hero raises, BB folds, UTG+1 calls, MP2 calls, CO calls.

Standard raise right?

Turn: (9.50 BB) 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (4 players)
UTG+1 checks, MP2 checks, CO checks, Hero bets, UTG+1 folds, MP2 raises, CO folds, Hero 3-bets, MP2 caps, Hero calls.

I pondered what to do here exactly 0 seconds. Should I have folded to the check-raise? Called down?

[/ QUOTE ]

You have more than 0 seconds now. What reasons do you have for folding? For calling down?

FlopMe · #3 04-06-2005, 05:37 AM

I've already analyzed it but I was hoping someone who has been playing limit holdem for longer than 4 months could as well.

Reasons for folding: mp2 has a higher flush

Reasons for continuing: mp2 slowplayed a set or hit a set, maybe the AdJx, maybe two pair, i've seen slowplayed overpairs here

At .5/1 I've seen such craziness that any two cards really wouldn't surprise me. Now that I'm thinking about it, it's almost a waste of time to analyze most of these hands I play at this limit.

Shillx · #4 04-06-2005, 05:52 AM

He probably has the nuts when he check/raises the turn (just by simple hand distribution and not that his c/r means the nuts). His check/raise gets it down to HU action and you certainly aren't going to fold since a) you might be good and b) you have two outs against a bigger flush, but now would be the best time to slow down. You really can't afford to get into a spew match with a better hand here. Let's say that he will have a better flush 50% of the time and a set the other 50% and he will cap with a flush and just call with a set:

EV-3bet = 2*.77*.5 - .5 - 4*.045*.5 - 1 = -.64 BB

So once it gets HU and it appears that you are beat, it is a good time to put on the breaks. It is even more prudent in this spot since you only have two outs if behind. It is a little easier to get crazy with a set because you still have 10 outs to bail you out should you be up against it.

Brad

Aaron W. · #5 04-06-2005, 03:13 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I've already analyzed it but I was hoping someone who has been playing limit holdem for longer than 4 months could as well.

Reasons for folding: mp2 has a higher flush

Reasons for continuing: mp2 slowplayed a set or hit a set, maybe the AdJx, maybe two pair, i've seen slowplayed overpairs here

At .5/1 I've seen such craziness that any two cards really wouldn't surprise me. Now that I'm thinking about it, it's almost a waste of time to analyze most of these hands I play at this limit.

[/ QUOTE ]

This last bit worries me. It's worth analyzing these hands at this limit, otherwise you'll never learn anything new. Your turn 3-bet is overplaying your hand by a significant margin. Shill's calculations show this pretty well, but your instincts *SHOULD* have told you that. You need to develop your instincts by training it to know what should happen in various situations.

DeuceKicker · #6 04-06-2005, 03:29 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Dump to the raise here? Don't play at all? I like to play suited 1-gappers from the button with 3+limpers.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you're going to fold to a raise you shouldn't be calling in the first place. You normally don't want to play this hand for two bets, which is why you save it for late position where the possibility of a raise decreases. But since the BB made a nuisance of himself and raised, you have to call.

DeadRed · #7 04-06-2005, 04:16 PM

[ QUOTE ]
He probably has the nuts when he check/raises the turn (just by simple hand distribution and not that his c/r means the nuts). His check/raise gets it down to HU action and you certainly aren't going to fold since a) you might be good and b) you have two outs against a bigger flush, but now would be the best time to slow down. You really can't afford to get into a spew match with a better hand here. Let's say that he will have a better flush 50% of the time and a set the other 50% and he will cap with a flush and just call with a set:

EV-3bet = 2*.77*.5 - .5 - 4*.045*.5 - 1 = -.64 BB

So once it gets HU and it appears that you are beat, it is a good time to put on the breaks. It is even more prudent in this spot since you only have two outs if behind. It is a little easier to get crazy with a set because you still have 10 outs to bail you out should you be up against it.

Brad

[/ QUOTE ]

Way too much math. (And I'm a mathematician - never thought I'd say such a thing!) I don't think this is something you have time to analyze at 1 table, let alone 8. Try this:

After the c/r - you are getting better than 10:1 to call the raise. I think you're a winner at least 10% of the time, so I don't think you can dump. With only 1 player in, all your additional bets are paying even money. If you think, given the current info, you will win over 50% of the time, keep pushing (Personally, I don't think you are, but that's your call.) Looks like you're calling the raise and the river. (Unless you catch the 7 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] or 3 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] and the angels start singing!)

bschlief · #8 04-06-2005, 04:27 PM

Preflop: I like.
Flop: I like.
Turn: I like, but the cap slows me down for the river.

My guess is the villian bets. I'd just call down.

ChoicestHops · #9 04-06-2005, 04:36 PM

I usually fold pre-flop.

However, after he caps the turn and bets the river, I call and watch him turn over the nut flush.

IcarusFalling · #10 04-06-2005, 04:51 PM

holy crap ! ! ! big pot.. yea raise flop is fine.. it's odd that he's raising on up on the turn... no straight.. yea i might call down on river