TP crap kicker from BB

J-Lo · #1 04-01-2005, 11:49 PM

After that irieguy betting impetus post i have found post flop play to be a cake walk... but i sometimes have trouble with hands, what line do i take w/ hands from the blinds?

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t50 (8 handed) converter

SB (t1935)
Hero (t798)
UTG (t605)
UTG+1 (t1540)
MP1 (t330)
MP2 (t590)
CO (t1477)
Button (t725)

Preflop: Hero is BB with K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
4 folds, CO calls t50, 1 fold, SB completes, Hero checks.

Flop: (t150) 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (3 players)
SB checks, Hero checks, CO bets t100, SB folds, Hero calls t100.

Turn: (t350) 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, CO bets t100, Hero calls t100.

River: (t550) 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, CO bets t225, Hero folds.

Final Pot: t775

edit: this is a $30+3 on friday night

Benoit · #2 04-02-2005, 12:10 AM

He was probably on the flush draw, especially when he bet 100 again on the turn when 4th street didn't bring it. I'm almost positive when he bets more on 5th street when the flush does hit. You should have reraised on the flop to define where you stood and to not give him odds to draw to his flush.

In actuality your kicker is probably good enough given everyone limped in pre-flop. Unless he has a 9,10,J,Q or A kicker, but you can scratch out the A, Q, and probably J because most people would be expected to raise with face cards like that... So now (IF he has a king) he might have a 9 or 10 kicker that beats you or 7 lower kickers that lose. Odds are given the action you are ahead.

aeakos · #3 04-02-2005, 12:16 AM

I think I raise the turn and fold on the river if called down.

lastchance · #4 04-02-2005, 12:20 AM

I think I push the turn. Too much in the pot, too little in my stack. This is a pretty bad spot to be in. Your hand isn't great, but I think it's just good enough to go broke here at the low-levels, especially considering the size of the pot.

johnnybeef · #5 04-02-2005, 12:22 AM

do you have any idea where you are at on this hand? no? neither do i. whys that you ask? cuz you didnt bet the flop. you need to bet this flop to establish that you have a hand and to find out where you are at. as it stands now neither you nor i (nor anyone else here besides the villain) have any idea if your opponent has a king, a 6, 45, or 2 spades. for some reason everyone at this forum has been discussing betting impedus over the last week, yet i see that few understand it. your hand is very marginal due to your kicker and lack of redraws. therefor this situation demands that you sieze the betting impedus instead of letting your opponent do so.

J-Lo · #6 04-02-2005, 12:35 AM

Yes, i am still trying to learn how to apply betting impetu-- so in marginal situations, i prefer to have "it." When i have a very weak hand or very strong hand, then i prefer he take the lead? maybe i have no clue what irie was talking about, someone enlighten be-- irie u there?

johnnybeef · #7 04-02-2005, 01:25 AM

[ QUOTE ]
in marginal situations, i prefer to have "it."

[/ QUOTE ]

the hand that you posted was marginal, yet you chose to forfeit it.

[ QUOTE ]
maybe i have no clue what irie was talking about, someone enlighten be

[/ QUOTE ]

ok. betting impedus is a very simple concept. every time the action is on you, you can either sieze (bet or raise) or forfiet(check or call) betting impedus. in order to apply when to use it or not, you must assess your confidence level of the value of your hand. there are 3 levels of confidence 1. you know you are ahead/behind. 2. you are pretty sure you are ahead/behind. 3. you have no idea if you are ahead/behind. situation 1 is the easy one and needs no discussion. situation 3 (which your example is) demands that you take the betting impedus in order to improve to situations 1 or 2 (the more likely improvement). situation 2 is the situation in which irie originally discussedthis concept. in these situations you can surrendur the betting impedus and let someone else "drive the bus". here is a hand example.

take your original hand example except make your kicker a jack, and make the flop rainbow. also lets say that the pot is 200 and both you and the villain have ~t800. with king jack you have top pair with a pretty reasonable kicker, and there are no reasonable draws out. in other words you are pretty sure you are ahead, but dont want to risk your tournament life on it. therefor you should surrendur the betting impedus by checking and then make a decision based upon what your opponent does, and what you know of him based on observations of other hands.

i think that sums it up

Bigwig · #8 04-02-2005, 01:27 AM

I lead out on the flop. I'm out of position vs. the scary player (LP limper) and I want to define my hand now.

raptor517 · #9 04-02-2005, 09:11 AM

ummm, does anybody else check fold the flop? i do. 3uo

Irieguy · #10 04-02-2005, 12:42 PM

You played the hand well.

Betting the flop here gets you in trouble most of the time, and you don't need to (get yourself into trouble) because you rate to have the best hand.

The CO bets the flop because he has a good chance to pick up the pot. You call.

The check-call on the turn is a very nice value play.

The river check is fine, because you have a pretty good feel for where your opponent is in the hand: either a flush draw, a better king, or not much. His bet amount on the river answers that question. You are beat.

I know a lot of people will say you should bet the flop, or raise somewhere in the hand or whatever. That is not the way to play these types of hands, in my opinion. I don't mind check-raise pushing on the flop... but there's no reason to think that you couldn't keep this pot smaller and get paid when your hand is good.

Players who always feel the need to lead are really easy to play against. Players capable of playing a hand like J-lo did here are very difficult opponents to play against when they are in the blinds.

You have to be stubborn, smart, crafty, and prudent from the blinds. Looks like J-Lo is on the right track.

Irieguy