Knocking out players on sixth street

[ACPlayer]

Player to your immediate right makes open K's on sixth street (not door card). You think he has most likely 2 pair (K's up). You hold one pair of AA. Do you almost always raise to try and knock out anouther one pair type had on your left? What if it is a draw type hand (most likely a flush or straight draw)?

[Valentyn]

If I think he's on a draw, I usually raise to try to convince him to abandon it.

If I think he's already got two pair, I usually fold, unless I've already seen the other two Kings in other hands. Which means I usually fold.

The better players on here may contradict me, though. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[Michael Emery]

No and No. If you knew the player with the open Kings has two pair then you have to improve to win. There is no reason to raise when your behind here. It dosent matter if its one pair or a strait/flush draw behind you. Players with one pair (unless they have the other aces or kings possibly) are likely folding anyway unless they have a draw also, due to the obvious fact that open kings are now out.

Players that are on a four flush or strait draw arent moving on sixth street so there's no reason to raise. Especially if your quite sure your aces are behind to two pair. The only situation where it might be correct is something like:

(??)7s 9s Kc Kd
(A4)Ac 5s Jd 6h
(??)Qd 4h 2c 2s

In a case like this is you were fairly certain that the player with the open Kings was on a flush draw and just had kings, and that the third player just made queens up, you would want to raise. Obviously its going to look like you can beat Kings-up and Queens-up when you raise. If the player with the Queens-up folds you have gained the entire pot if you fail to improve and take the pot away from dry kings. If he still calls (which he is in a tough position to do) you obviously still have outs to Aces-up.

I'm not sure if any of the older posters here can recall a hand posted by Sitting Bull a few years back (why I can I have no idea). He posted a hand almost identical to the one I described as an example. We even got Ray Zee to chime in on that discussion. I think Bull, Andy, and MRB would be the only other ones that could recall it.


Mike Emery

[schubes]

There's no way you can fold AA on 6th to Ks up. I think a raise is counterproductive since a draw will almost never fold, and another pair only hurts you if they make trips while you make aces up.

[Roland]

Michael beat me to it [img]/images/graemlins/blush.gif[/img], but I’ll post it anyway.

It doesn’t make much sense to try and knock out the third player if he is holding only one pair. He is only going to hurt you if you improve to aces-up and he improves to trips at the same time. So while having him in there does reduce your chances of winning slightly, this is more than made up for by the one or maybe two bets (the 6th street bet and a bet on the river if you both improve) you extract from him by just calling.
Even if the third player has already made two pair by 6th the situation is pretty much the same. Again, if you make aces-up, he has to make a full house to beat you.
Note that this is only true because you can be quite sure you are against kings-up already. If the first bettor might have only kings, you should raise to increase your chances of winning unimproved.

Trying to knock out a draw with your pair of aces doesn’t seem like a good idea either (I’m not so sure about that though). The reason is that, unless the pot is small, a four-flush or four straight isn’t going to fold for just two more bets. So you would simply be donating money to the kings-up. Reversely, you should be raising if you already have aces-up to make the draw pay (and the kings-up of course).

[jon_1van]

Mike,
Good response.

But I want to add that it is also wrong to raise if you think the 3rd player has just a 4flush or straightdraw. The reason is that the drawing player will win the pot something like 22% of the time (if he sees a river). Your pot equity will go up some fraction of 22%. That fraction will be the fraction of time you will beat the Ks up heads up. That fraction is gonna be around 25%. So your equity will go up about .22 * .25 or about 5.5%. So if the pot has about 20 BB in it you are making an even money play...assuming the Ks up doesn't 3-bet.

So if its is wrong to pushout a guy with around 8 or 9 outs it is definetly wrong to push out a guy with 4 outs (Qs up trying to hit FH) or less.

[BeerMoney]

It kinda seems that the whole concept of knocking out players when you're behind is somewhat over rated. This is a question that is often asked, but never really given a great answer to. Emery gave a good answer, but it was more of a specific situation, rather than a general conceptual type of answer.

I think the concept is more geared for raising, if you THINK you MIGHT be behind, it can still be ok to raise. The small chance that you are ahead can make the situation into a raise, rather than a call.

[PoorLawyer]

[ QUOTE ]

It kinda seems that the whole concept of knocking out players when you're behind is somewhat over rated. This is a question that is often asked, but never really given a great answer to. Emery gave a good answer, but it was more of a specific situation, rather than a general conceptual type of answer.

I think the concept is more geared for raising, if you THINK you MIGHT be behind, it can still be ok to raise. The small chance that you are ahead can make the situation into a raise, rather than a call.

[/ QUOTE ]

i think this is also a more beneficial earlier in the hand too when you have a greater chance to improve to the best hand if you are behind. With only one card to come and it looks like I'm behind, it doesnt seem like a good idea to throw an extra bet away.

[SittingBull]

That's Y I will be leaning toward Hold'em where a good memory is not a major factor.
[img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]SittingBull

[SittingBull]

RAISING with second-best hand on 4th Str. in attempting to knock out a 3rd player on a drawing hand when the pot is quite large . This is the same idea of attempting to win large pots immediately.
However,I do not believe a drawing hand on 4th is going anywhere --NOT even with the BIG KIDS on the block(big mid-limits/high-limit players). Raising would make it MORE CORRECT for the 4th St. draw to continue to play IF THE POT IS ALREADY quite large on 4th. The theory assumes that MOST players would drop the drawing hand.
the drawing hand would be obtaining the worst of it by continuing. Most of the BIG KIDS would probably drop at this point,fearing a set or two big Prs. If they don't,these are the players that u want at your table--those who are chasing with insufficient pot-odds. [img]/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img]
HappyPokering, [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]
SittingBull