Daniel vs T.J. at the 4 Queens

[Vince Lepore]

Last night I played in the O'rleans No Limit Holdem Monday night Tournament here in Vegas. I did not make the money. Disapointed, I headed to my place of nocturnalism when I decided to divert a bit and see what was going on at the 4 Queens Tournament. The $1060 Limit Holdem Tournament was being held. To my good fortune and what turned into utter delight the tournament was down to three players. One player, the eventual winner, I might add, I did not recognize at all. And still do not know his name. The other two were Poker tournament heavy weights, T.J. Cloutier and my personal favorite player to watch, Daniel Negreanu.

I must admit that when I got there it did not look good for the player that eventually won. In fact I gave him no chance, given that he was short stacked against these two seasoned pros. But this story is not about who won or lost the tournament. It is about one hand that I watched Daniel and T.J play.

The blinds were T400-800 with limits of T800-1600. Daniel was the button and raised T.J.'s Big Blind. T.J. reraised and Daniel called. The flop came Qs,3s,3c. T.J. bet, Daniel raised and T.J. called. The turn was the Kd, making the board look like Kd,Qs,3s,3c. T.J. immediately bet out. Daniel raised and T.J. hesitated for a second and called. The river was the red diamond deuce. The final board was Kd,Qs,3c,3s,2d. T.J. quickly checked and Daniel waving his hand checked also. T.J. declared Ace high. Daniel turned over 2 black sevens! Daniel won a very big pot essentially crippling T.J. I found this hand extraordinary in that I believe it was extremely well played by both players given the blinds and situation they found themselves. I wonder how many of you agree?

I must add one thing that may have a bearing on how you view the playing of this hand. Two hands before this T.J. was dealt a severe blow by the eventual winner when his pocket Queens lost to pocket Jacks via runner runner diamonds giving the Jacks a flush. But more importantly putting a huge dent in T,J.'s stack not to mention visibly upsetting him. After the 2 sevens T.J. went out on the next hand when he raised Daniel's B.B. with the Js5s and Daniel called. The blinds had been raised to T500-1000 with T1000-2000 limits. The flop came 3d,4s,6s. All of T.J.'s remaining chips went in on the flop. Daniel had 9,6o and won when T.J.s flush, straight and over card hand did not improve.

When the tournament was over I asked Daniel if I could post a hand up here on rgp and 2 + 2. His reply was "The 2 sevens"? I had watched this tournament for almost three hours. I saw roughly between 150 and 200 hands and Daniel zeroed in on the one hand that I found most compelling with out even a hint from me. I thought, "Maybe I was on to something" I hope you find it as interesting.

Vince

[The Prince]

Nice post Vince,

To me, the hand is simply good aggressive play by both players. TJ probably did not like to call when Daniel raised again on the turn. But then there are a bunch of draws out there, so it's reasonnable to think that his ace high was good.

And also, when are you planning a trip to Foxwoods? I still owe you that 20$.

[whiskeytown]

this is what I want to see...this is why we watch the WSOP final tables and why I love reading tournament final tables in card player magazine...

pros playing each other...it's a bit like chess..you want to be good...watch how the best do it and learn. I'd kill for more analysis like this wherever I can find it...

the interesting part now is...Vince says Both players played the hand very well. I see the flop...it's the turn that has me going hmmmm....

if I were Daniel, I'd have put TJ on at LEAST a K or Q (although probably TJ may only raise with A high...I don't know his play well enough to know for sure - and I guess Daniel knew enough to keep raising...) - and I'd have considered dumping the turn unless over half my stack was in...I dunno. But they were both unsure enough where they could check the river...guess that says something about both of them.

that's why Daniel's the pro and I'm still the numbnut.

Now, if that had been a poker stars tourney, and I were Daniel and TJ were another player, the TJ player would have had Q3 and flopped a boat on me...LOL

[img]/forums/images/icons/grin.gif[/img] [img]/forums/images/icons/grin.gif[/img] [img]/forums/images/icons/grin.gif[/img] [img]/forums/images/icons/grin.gif[/img] [img]/forums/images/icons/grin.gif[/img] - oh wait... that's not funny [img]/forums/images/icons/mad.gif[/img]

RB

if I were Daniel, I'd have put TJ on at LEAST a K or Q (although probably TJ may only raise with A high...I don't know his play well enough to know for sure - and I guess Daniel knew enough to keep raising...) - and I'd have considered dumping the turn unless over half my stack was in...I dunno. But they were both unsure enough where they could check the river...guess that says something about both of them.

Let me share with you, what I was thinking throughout the hand:

PREFLOP: I raise on the button well over 50% of the time, so it's understandable that TJ would start re-raising me with less than big pairs. Holding, two 7-7's, is an above average hand in this spot, considering the wide range of hands I'd raise with three handed. Of course, there was no need to four bet it, I thought I'd be better off disguising my hand, as well as seeing what developed.

FLOP: On the flop, when TJ bet out, I wanted to find out where I was at. I wanted to find out how strong his hand was, so I raised. When TJ just called, my instincts told me that I had the best hand.

TURN: Now here is where it gets a little tricky. Here is what you want be able to learn from reading books. I've played with TJ a ton of hours. Just last month we were heads up at the Hall of Fame, and I also played him heads up years ago in 97'. I know a lot about his game from reading his book, and playing so many hours with him.
Anyway, when TJ bet the K, alarm bells went off in my head, two things were fishy:

1) If he had the K, I would expect him to check it to me. I believe this, as I said before, because of the betting patterns I've picked up on him over the years.
2) I picked up a reliable tell, that unfortunately I can't share. The way he went for his chips, then put them in the pot, lead me to believe he was bluffing.

Rather than call him, I thought it was important to raise him, and represent an even stronger hand then I actually held. Why? In case he was semi-bluffing with 8's through Q's. If he held one of those hands, he would have likely folded, thinking he only had two outs. Also, if he was drawing to beat me, I wanted him to pay full price.

So what did TJ have? Well he didn't show, but I'd be willing to bet it was A-J, or maybe A-10. I think he called on the turn trying to spike a gutshot straight, or hit the Ace. If he put me on KQ, that would be the correct call, considering the size of the pot.

Daniel Negreanu
kidpoker@hotmail.com
www.fullcontactpoker.com

I've read TJ's book, but I have yet to get the analysis you have from it...I know he's a bit slippery, but his books suggests such a tight style I have a hard time getting to the final table just on that advice alone. (in fact, if I read his NL book, I get the impression that everything in NL is simply reading your opponent, which he tends to do pretty well, so I heard.

nevertheless, a very good play and read on your part...I figured you had to know something from your experience with him, and even if you didn't have the tell, it sounds like enough of a warning went off in your head to finish the hand.

wonder if this would have played the same way in internet poker...LOL?

thanks for your two cents, Daniel - Like I said in my previous post, I think of tournament poker a lot like I think about chess...lots to learn by playing, but lots to learn by observing the pros too.

now if I could just find work so I could start rebuilding my bankroll...grrr...

RB

I've read TJ's book, but I have yet to get the analysis you have from it...I know he's a bit slippery, but his books suggests such a tight style I have a hard time getting to the final table just on that advice alone. (in fact, if I read his NL book, I get the impression that everything in NL is simply reading your opponent, which he tends to do pretty well, so I heard.

To be completely honest, I didn't read the book to help my game, I read it to help me understand how he and Tom think. That's the same reason I'll read Phil's book when it comes out- to have an even better read on his thought process.
There are only two tournament books that I've read that I would endorse to the public, Tournament Poker (by Sklansky), and another book by Ken Buntjer which is difficult to find. In other books, I would be careful what you read. Question everything, and don't assume the writer are right, just because they are published.

"Question everything, and don't assume the writer are right, just because they are published."

Moreover, the writer may be right in the games he plays in. In your game, conditions could be a lot different. I see this quite a lot on forums everywhere, someone reads something and tries to apply the concept without fully understanding the reasoning behind it, when to use it and (most importantly) when not to use it. Often this is even counterproductive - they would have been better off not reading it at all. You must deconstruct everything you read and see how it applies to/for you. Even if you don't agree with everything DS says, the important thing is he explains why better than any other author.

Andy.

[whiskeytown]

tell me about it..

when I started keeping notes, I had a note on a guy that said "goes all-in on as low as pocket 9's"

Now, in the first round, this blows...but it's not a bad play with 4 times the BB near the end of a tourney.

I'm learning I didn't always know what I was doing the first few months of my NL play when I was taking those notes ...(wish I could win as much now as I did then though... [img]/forums/images/icons/grin.gif[/img] )

RB

[mdlm]

Vince,

What etiquette rules do I need to follow when watching players? How far away do I need to stand? Do I need to ask the player's permission? Do I need to ask the cardroom manager?

Are there differences between watching a ring game and a tournament game?

Thx.

[Mark Heide]

What did you like about Ken Buntjer book?

Good Luck

Mark