See 30 % flop ... help. .. What else do I cut ?

theredpill5 · #1 03-10-2005, 07:54 AM

Hi. My flop % is still too high. I'm seeing 30 % of flops and I just feel like I'm leaking chips.

I'm playing :

Axs any position
TJs any position
QJs any position
KJo any
KQo any
ATo and up any
Any pocket pairs in any position
I complete SB with 67s and up
I play 67s and up in LP , too, sometimes

Question is on Axs , should I be playing this in EP and MP ? If you see anything else, I appreciate it. I'm oozing chips. I'm unable to compete in tighter games because I'm giving chips out that I'm not getting back if that makes any sense.

I've cut from my game recently. QTo, JTo, KTo, QJo,

Ojo_Rojo · #2 03-10-2005, 08:04 AM

I think youre throwing away money in early position with some (most) of these hands...

Do you have PokerTracker? I think its worth the investment, as it will press home the disadvantages of playing these hands in early position. According to my stats, some of the hands you are playing are my biggest losers.

Ojo_Rojo

MarkL444 · #3 03-10-2005, 08:05 AM

[ QUOTE ]
KJo any
KQo any
ATo any

[/ QUOTE ]

in a full game this is bad

theredpill5 · #4 03-10-2005, 08:11 AM

wow, didn't expect that answer. I thought KJo, KQo, ATo, were decent hands. EV on them is high.

oh yeah forgot these too

J9s in any
QTs in any
KTs in any

I'm basically playing a lot of hands. Sorry , not sure how to structure this post.

I always figured the Axs was the problem.

I also sometimes play T8s since it has a slightly positive EV but hell , I hardly ever really play it postflop.

MyMindIsGoing · #5 03-10-2005, 08:19 AM

Axs any position - overrated, play only ATs and higher
TJs any position - good, be carful if Jxx flop
QJs any position - be carful in early pos but ok if you can get away from it
KJo any - very bad hand
KQo any - only late pos in unraised pots
ATo and up any - AQo and up from any pos would be better, maybe AJ on the button in unraised pots
Any pocket pairs in any position - good
I complete SB with 67s and up - good
I play 67s and up in LP , too, sometimes - i always play those from late pos

That is how I play 10 handed. Stay away from unsuited high cards (exept AK and AQ that you should raise with) and you will stay out of much trouble. Too tight for many [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

theredpill5 · #6 03-10-2005, 09:32 AM

thank you. I will give up Axs under ATs . That should solve some leakage. I don't understand why everyone thinks K J o is so bad. It has +EV on the chart. And yes, I'm careful with JTs and any kicker problems. If the betting gets out of hand, I fold hands with bad kickers. Also, I never call a raise with KQo or KJo unless its one of those damn mini-raises.

Wayfare · #7 03-10-2005, 09:39 AM

[ QUOTE ]
thank you. I will give up Axs under ATs . That should solve some leakage. I don't understand why everyone thinks K J o is so bad. It has +EV on the chart. And yes, I'm careful with JTs and any kicker problems. If the betting gets out of hand, I fold hands with bad kickers. Also, I never call a raise with KQo or KJo unless its one of those damn mini-raises.

[/ QUOTE ]

Is that a limit chart? In NL being dominated is far more expensive.

I wouldn't play drawing hands up front, with the exception of maybe JTs. Unless you are willing to call a raise a decent amount of the time, you shouldn't be limping.

Also, if you use pokertracker you will be able to tell if your hands are making money or not.

gulebjorn · #8 03-10-2005, 10:59 AM

Here's how I play full ring.
Comments are welcome since i'm still struggling with it myself
"Axs any position"
Scrap anything below ATs unless ur in LP, or in MP and it's a passive table.
"TJs any position"
Late mid and late pos would be better unless table is passive enough to get away with these without being raised.
QJs could be even worse, depends on how good you are at getting away from dominated hands
KJo any
Only in late.
KQo any
Mid-late
ATo: Late
AJo: mid-late
AQo and up: any pos if table is passive
PP's: limp but don't call raises with less than QQ unless there are at least three other callers

complete SB: with pretty much anything. SB discount is enough to make almost any hand +EV, except the absolute horrible ones. Be sure to get away from trash on the flop unless you hit at least two pair.
SC's: 67s and up: mid-late
one gaps: 68s and up only in late
two gaps: 57 and up on button
"I've cut from my game recently. QTo, JTo, KTo, QJo"
I'll call with these in late pos, with suited hands i'll call down to K8s, Q8s, J8s

Since you say you're leaking chips, here are some tips that helped my game a lot:

- pocket pairs: hit or fold ON THE FLOP if overcards fall.
- don't call cold raises with anything less than premium hands. If you have no money invested in the pot, it is raised before you and you're looking down on AJo, KQ, 33... don't think about it, just muck.
- If you don't improve on the flop, throw it away.
- learn odds for drawing to straights and flushes.
- Limp and call less, bet and raise more

Good luck

daveymck · #9 03-10-2005, 11:14 AM

"don't call cold raises with anything less than premium hands. If you have no money invested in the pot, it is raised before you and you're looking down on AJo, KQ, 33... don't think about it, just muck."

I was under the impression cold calling with pp's and some suited connector hands with position was encouraged?

gulebjorn · #10 03-10-2005, 11:28 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I was under the impression cold calling with pp's and some suited connector hands with position was encouraged?

[/ QUOTE ]

Maybe it is, like i said: i'm still working on this myself, so any discussion on the subject is welcome.

But still, i always thought that you need at least 4 ppl in the pot for PP's, and 5 ppl for SC's, in order to make these hands +EV. As far as PP's go, you could also hold on to the 5-10% rule. But if he's leaking chips, he's better off tightening up too much and then loosen up some more once he's got a profitable game going.

Anyway, i think in general, cold calling with SC and PP, even with pos, is only encouraged in order to mix up your play. Unless of course you're playing with players that are so bad, that your implied odds justify calling raises with these hands.

Problem is that a PF raise will usually continue on the flop. This means that, with PP's, you will lose the pot 7/8 times, missing your set and folding on the flop. So you will have to make 7 times the PF raise when you do hit your set in order to make this profitable. If you're calling an average 4xBB PF raise, you will need to win more than 28xBB every time you hit your set in order to make profit. I'm not sure, but i think SC's have even less chance of hitting the flop, so they are worse. They also have the added problems of hitting a second best hand.

Plz correct me if i'm wrong