Is there ever a time to wait until the river?

[sean c]

Live 6/12. MP2 is a thinking TAG everyone else in the hand is LP.

Sean is button with AJs. Two EP limpers MP2 limps folds to sean who raises. Blinds call all limpers call.(6 see flop)

Flop: AJX rainbow. Checks to MP2 who bets sean calls all limpers call.
Turn: a brick. Checks to MP2 who bets sean raises blinds fold first limper folds second limper calls MP2 calls.
River: another brick. Checks to sean who bets EP limper folds MP2 calls.

My question is it ever correct to wait for the river to raise if the bettor is directly on your right and a turn raise will shut out your overcalls on a fairly drawless board or am I just asking for trouble? Maybe with a set on a drawless board? In this game and most I play in the LP's usually fold to any turn aggression. I feel I played the hand correctly and sure didn't want to see another broadway card on the river but do you ever wait until the river?

[bakku]

I'd raise the flop for a couple of reasons. Facing the blinds and limpers on a drawless board on the turn with calling 2 cold sucks. MP might 3-bet your flop raise with a decent hand allowing you to call and raise the turn. MP might 3-bet the flop with a worse hand but he's not going to 3-bet the turn with a worse hand. The blinds/limpers are more likely to call 2 cold on the flop than on the turn and may call you down to the river if they only have to face one bet on the turn/river.

[sean c]

[ QUOTE ]
I'd raise the flop for a couple of reasons. Facing the blinds and limpers on a drawless board on the turn with calling 2 cold sucks. MP might 3-bet your flop raise with a decent hand allowing you to call and raise the turn. MP might 3-bet the flop with a worse hand but he's not going to 3-bet the turn with a worse hand. The blinds/limpers are more likely to call 2 cold on the flop than on the turn and may call you down to the river if they only have to face one bet on the turn/river.

[/ QUOTE ]

Nice. Good point I didn't even consider it but it makes alot of sense.

[Elbie]

The pot is big and I don´t think that you can protect your hand on the flop against gutshots and other draws. I would have played this the same way and just called the flop-bet.

I think that you have to raise the turn not to give people behind a cheap look at the river. In this hand they folded. If they call 2-cold that´s fine too.

In a big pot like this you have to concentrate on winning and not worry about getting more bets into the pot.

[bakku]

[ QUOTE ]
The pot is big and I don´t think that you can protect your hand on the flop against gutshots and other draws. I would have played this the same way and just called the flop-bet.

I think that you have to raise the turn not to give people behind a cheap look at the river. In this hand they folded. If they call 2-cold that´s fine too.

In a big pot like this you have to concentrate on winning and not worry about getting more bets into the pot.

[/ QUOTE ]

Are you serious? Hero has top 2 on a rainbow board.

[Fat Nicky]

your position relative to the flop bettor sucks. If you just call the flop, the passives will come along and see the turn but likely fold when you face most of the field with 2 bets. So, I'd raise the flop and hope people call will near hopeless hands.

[chief444]

I agree with Bakku.

And yes, there are times to wait until the river to raise. But I can't think of any times when it's 6-way action. Usually heads-up when the pot is relatively small and you would rather keep your opponent betting into you with a likely worse hand and you aren't too worried about being drawn out on.

[chief444]

Here's an example of one I played last night where I waited:

Party 2/4

I'm dealt red KK and raise from UTG+1. Only somewhat loose aggressive BB calls.

Flop is J-6-2 rainbow.

He bets, I call

Turn is 4, suits don't really matter.

He bets, I call

River is another 4.

He bets, I raise

But you really should never be waiting until the river in multiway pots because draws don't pay off when they miss.

edit...also, if I had 88-JJ on a ragged flop I'm playing more aggressive early because he likely has more outs than against KK.

[mistrpug]

Two questions chief...

1) Why not raise the turn?
2) Why are you playing 2/4? I'm sure you could crush 3/6. I think you're one of the more knowledgable poster in the SS forum.

[sean c]

Great replies I had never even considered a flop raise as a pot builder (which is what I wanted). I played the hand to protect it (which I didn't want). Thanks for the help. BTW Elbie that was a great post yesterday I really enjoyed it.