Maximum Extraction

gaming_mouse · #1 02-17-2005, 01:08 AM

Villain was loose and overly aggro, but not unable to make laydowns. I could have gotten more money out of this. What's the maximally profitable line?

Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (7 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is BB with J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
1 fold, MP1 raises, 4 folds, Hero calls.

Flop: (4.33 SB) J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, MP1 bets, Hero raises, MP1 calls.

Turn: (4.16 BB) 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero bets, MP1 folds.

Final Pot: 5.16 BB

stanky · #2 02-17-2005, 01:24 AM

Heads up, out of position, with a strong hand against overly aggresives I like this line:
(you), (him), (you)
check, bet, call
check, bet, call
check, bet, raise

or it could go:

check, bet, call
check, bet, call
bet, (hopefully call)

-Pete

Nate tha' Great · #3 02-17-2005, 01:48 AM

This is fine.

The problem is that the opponent is going to be pretty quick to give you credit for a pair on that flop so if you just check-call the flop you risk his taking a free card on the turn with KQ/AQ/AK. That's pretty disasterous for you since you'll often only get one SB out of him plus he gets to river you some of the time.

If he's got an overpair or something like AJ, this line should get a lot of action out of him.

The only hand that this line doesn't do well against is something like 77-99, which will probably bet the turn if you check-call the flop, but even then he's probably folding once you show aggression.

Nate tha' Great · #4 02-17-2005, 02:05 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Heads up, out of position, with a strong hand against overly aggresives I like this line:
(you), (him), (you)
check, bet, call
check, bet, call
check, bet, raise

or it could go:

check, bet, call
check, bet, call
bet, (hopefully call)

-Pete

[/ QUOTE ]

These lines are both much too passive.

Most of your profit in hold 'em after the flop comes from your opponents having second best hands, and there's a very good chance that your opponent is going to have a second-best hand here. You have to position yourself to take advantage of these scenarios, and generally the earlier in the hand that you do, the longer and more vigorously your opponent is going to play back at you.

Let's say that your opponent has QQ. How is the action going to go?

Most likely one of these variations:

Variation I
1) Flop: Check-bet-raise-call (+1 BB)
2) Turn: Bet-raise-3bet-call. (+3 BB)
3) River: Bet-call. (+1 BB)
Total = +5 BB

Variation II
1) Flop: Check-bet-raise-3bet-call. (+1.5 BB)
2) Turn: Check-bet-raise-call. (+2 BB)
3) River: Check-call. (+1 BB)
Total = 4.5 BB

Variaton III
1) Flop: Check-bet-raise-3bet-cap (+2 BB)
2) Turn: Bet-Call. (+1 BB)
3) River: Bet-Call. (+1 BB)
Total = +4 BB

Variation IV
1) Flop: Check-bet-raise-3bet-cap. (+2 BB)
2) Turn: Bet-Raise-3bet-Call. (+3 BB)
3) River: Bet-Call. (+1 BB)
Total = +6 BB

So we're getting something like 5 BB out of him on the average (if he's putting more money into the pot than that, then we have to start worrying about sets and so forth).

Compare that to your lines ... again we'll assume that you have JT and your opponent has QQ and the turn and river are blanks.

Stanky #1
1) Flop: Check-Bet-Call. (+.5 BB)
2) Turn: Check-Bet-Call. (+1 BB)
3) River: Check-Bet-Raise-Call (+2 BB)
===========
Total = 3.5 BB

I think it's going to be very rare for him to 3-bet your river check-raise as it usually represents a total monster or a complete bluff.

Stanky #2
1) Flop: Check-Bet-Call. (+.5 BB)
2) Turn: Check-Bet-Call. (+1 BB)
3) River. We'll assume that he'll raise your river bet about half the time, which I think is about right.

3a) River: Bet-Call (+1 BB)
3b) River: Bet-Raise-3bet-call. (+3 BB)
Total = 2.5 BB - 4.5 BB

You see what I'm getting at here? I think your lines are going to get something like 3.5 BB from him on the average whereas mine or going to get 5 BB out of him on the average. This is before accounting for the chance that a scare card like a board pair comes and your opponent checks behind, which is obviously a disaster.

Playing your good hands fast is essential. I'm a huge fan of flop check-raises.

stanky · #5 02-17-2005, 03:06 AM

Passive is sometimes right!

I agree that your lines are better agaisnt tight aggresives and moderatly loose aggresives but I based my line on the villian being overly aggresive and that he is not unable to make lay downs. I've had several times heads up where I knew I had my oppenent drawing thin and managed to make a couple of extra BB's by letting him bluff at the pot on the turn and river.

-Pete

zephed56 · #6 02-17-2005, 04:56 AM

Why not just bet the flop? It looks like a weak attempt to take a shot at the preflop raiser. He certainly won't fold for one bet on the flop after raising preflop, will he?

If he just calls you, you don't risk giving away any free cards either.

You said he's overly aggressive, so he's likely to raise you, letting you 3-bet him.

What do y'all think?

spydog · #7 02-17-2005, 10:22 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Why not just bet the flop? It looks like a weak attempt to take a shot at the preflop raiser. He certainly won't fold for one bet on the flop after raising preflop, will he?

If he just calls you, you don't risk giving away any free cards either.

You said he's overly aggressive, so he's likely to raise you, letting you 3-bet him.

What do y'all think?

[/ QUOTE ]

I like leading this flop and then 3-betting. You will have built a nice little pot and he might just call the turn with a naked Ace if he's bad.