NL Pinapple8 hand

[Chris Daddy Cool]

this is something that had me thinking. you're playing NL crazy pineapple hi/lo with an 8 qualifier.

blinds are 0.05/0.10. 6 handed. everybody at the table has about $5.00

3 limpers to you. you're on the button with A [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]A [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]2 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] and raise to 0.50. whole table calls. 6 to the flop for $3.00

flop: 5 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]6 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]8 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

what card to you discard? and whats your equity of each holding?

what if the flop is:
3 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]7 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]K [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

?

[bigredlemon]

I rarely play pineapply, but I would presume the nut low is the easy choice. Somebody could have the straight, two pair, flush draw. Since you have two aces, it's even less likely for a split.

But i'm not the authority on pineapple so i'll let more experienced players chime in.

[DeeJ]

ooh, ohh, me me!

First hand u gotta play the low, the hi may not hold up, and there is almost certainly gonna be a lo playing with 6 in so cheaply.

Second one, play the Hi. Your low may not materialise.

Did I get it right?

[einbert]

For the first hand, I think it's obvious you have to keep the low. You've flopped the nut low and the only hand that can tie you for the low is another A2, which is unlikely considering that you already have two of the aces and one of the twos. If you keep the two aces, cards that probably ruin your hand (and this is assuming it is good on the flop, which it probably isn't) are:
any club
any 7
any 4
For a total of 15 cards that probably render your hand second best. With two cards to come this is >50% to happen. If you opt instead to keep the low, the only cards you can be worried about are:
The two remaining aces
The three remaining twos
So you only have to dodge 5 cards twice, giving you more than a 5/6 chance of being good for the low. That's about 83% of 50% of the pot. You'll have the majority of half the pot this way, but by keeping the aces you will be an underdog to win half the pot.

While hand 1 seems very obvious, hand 2 seems more complex. I would actually advocate keeping the Ad2d in this spot, for the following reasons:
1. You have 16 outs twice to make the nut low, so you are a favorite to win the low half of this pot (if there is a low of course). You will win the low half 70% of the time if you never have to split it with another A2(unlikely considering you have two aces and a deuce).
2. You have some chance of winning the high half of the pot (You will make the backdoor nut flush ~5% of the time, a backdoor straight ~4% of the time, and top pair ~9% of the time. Top pair probably won't win half the pot very often, maybe a third of the time. So let's say you have 5%+4%+3% or 12% to win the high half of the pot. If ace high wins another 3% of the time (I think this is reasonable?) you might have about a 15% chance of winning the high half. Your pot equity this way is 70% of the low half of the pot plus 15% of the high half of the pot. (.7*.5)+(.15*.5) = 42.5%. This is a very high figure considering that the pot is 6-handed, so you would only need 17% pot equity in order for a value bet to be profitable.
3. The other reason I would advocate keeping the Ad2d is that playing the aces becomes very difficult after this flop. Besides the fact that you give up a pretty much guaranteed 35% (70%*1/2) of the pot by keeping the aces, you also are much more prone to making mistakes on the flop, turn and river. Considering that 6 people called your 5x BB PFR, they most likely have fairly loose calling standards and could have many, many different hands. You are very likely already beaten by a random two pair or a set. Against two pair you have 5 outs on the turn and 8 outs on the river, so you will draw out against two pair almost 30% of the time. However, it is very probable that a loose player could call down in this situation with top, middle, or bottom one pair (perhaps assuming you for A2). In this situation, the board pairing could beat you instead of saving you. If you keep the aces, making decisions on the remaining streets of this hand becomes incredibly difficult, and you will lose EV every take you incidentally make one of these incorrect desicions. Even if you simplify this process by going all in immediately, you could easily be called by two pair with you are a 70/30 dog against, or a low draw + a gutshot (like 45) in which case your pot equity is slightly less than 50% (I estimate).

So good analysis? Bad analysis? Holes in my analysis?

EDIT: Can you play just one of your hole cards for the low or do you have to play both of them? I assumed that you had to play both, but I guess maybe that was wrong. If you can play just one, the decision in the first hand becomes closer because by keeping AA you have some chance of drawing the best low hand (maybe 30% of the time or so?) and combining that with the portion you now own of the high half of the pot (which could be just about anywhere, but I would estimate it at around 25%, probably less) you have a total pot equity of around 27%. So, while it makes the decision closer, keeping the A2 still seems to be far and away the best play.

[Phat Mack]

[ QUOTE ]
this is something that had me thinking. you're playing NL crazy pineapple hi/lo with an 8 qualifier.

blinds are 0.05/0.10. 6 handed. everybody at the table has about $5.00

3 limpers to you. you're on the button with A [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]A [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]2 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] and raise to 0.50. whole table calls. 6 to the flop for $3.00

flop: 5 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]6 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]8 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

what card to you discard? and whats your equity of each holding?



[/ QUOTE ]

To me, the first one is easy because you have nut low, and the board renders your pair of A's worhtless: there are going to be bigger highs, and bigger high draws against you. You don't have any clubs, so you don't have a flush draw or any blockers, and with such a coordinated flop you may be against sets, 2-pairs, straights and straight & flush draws.

You've got nut low, might try to stack off if you think you can drag it. What you wouldn't want is to become head's up against an Ac2c, since he would be free-rolling against you. An AcLc or even an AcLx might also be able to out-play you here if a 2 or a club comes on 4th street. A lot would depend on your reads.

If you think taking it down here improbable, and are at a table of bad players, an alternative would be to make a series of milk bets hoping for multiple callers.

[ QUOTE ]
what if the flop is:
3 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]7 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]K [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

?

[/ QUOTE ]

You've got an over pair, and over pairs can be trap hands in CP, especially no limit CP. The good news is that the board is uncoordinated. One thing you don't mention is whether you have to discard before or after the flop's betting round. If you discard after, and you feel like gambling, you could stack off on the flop. If you get called, and feel you're against a set, you could discard the A and draw to half the pot. If you got called by a low draw, you could keep the pair of A's: you'd probably have the best high, and you'd still have a runner-runner low draw. If you were called by an A4, for example, and it came 6-4, you'd get 3/4's.

[dlk9s]

[ QUOTE ]

EDIT: Can you play just one of your hole cards for the low or do you have to play both of them? I assumed that you had to play both, but I guess maybe that was wrong. If you can play just one, the decision in the first hand becomes closer because by keeping AA you have some chance of drawing the best low hand (maybe 30% of the time or so?) and combining that with the portion you now own of the high half of the pot (which could be just about anywhere, but I would estimate it at around 25%, probably less) you have a total pot equity of around 27%. So, while it makes the decision closer, keeping the A2 still seems to be far and away the best play.

[/ QUOTE ]

In Crazy Pineapple, you can play both, one, or neither of your two remaining cards, just like in HE. So, even if his Ace or 2 got counterfeited, he'd still have a shot at the low, depending on what the other players had.