My biggest weakness - value betting

helpmeout · #1 12-17-2004, 09:44 AM

1. Both players are weak, SB likes to bet gutshots or OESDs I felt if I hit a 9 they would pay me off(I expected them all to call the flop with no raise). I dont know why the river card scared me.

Party Poker 5/10 Hold'em (6 max, 6 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is BB with 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
UTG folds, MP calls, CO calls, Button folds, SB completes, Hero checks.

Flop: (4 SB) T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (4 players)
SB bets, Hero calls, MP folds, CO calls.

Turn: (3.50 BB) 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (3 players)
SB bets, Hero calls, CO raises, SB calls, Hero 3-bets, CO calls, SB calls.

River: (12.50 BB) K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (3 players)
SB checks, Hero checks, CO checks.

Final Pot: 12.50 BB

2. UTG is taggish.

When he capped the turn I thought JJ, big flush, or maybe Ad9. At least a big overpair with a high diamond. (Actually I didnt think I froze on the river)

Party Poker 5/10 Hold'em (6 max, 5 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is BB with 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
UTG raises, MP folds, Button calls, SB calls, Hero calls.

Flop: (8 SB) 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (4 players)
SB checks, Hero bets, UTG calls, Button folds, SB folds.

Turn: (5 BB) J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero bets, UTG raises, Hero 3-bets, UTG caps, Hero calls.

River: (13 BB) Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, UTG checks.

Final Pot: 13 BB

Gravy (Gravy Smoothie) · #2 12-17-2004, 09:56 AM

Yeah, I think given your reads here you should be betting both of these rivers and calling a raise back.

Zele · #3 12-17-2004, 10:01 AM

1. Why did you call the flop to begin with?

2. Why did you bet out at the PFR with this small draw?

imitation · #4 12-17-2004, 10:06 AM

Hand 1: Flop call bad
Hand 2: I think betting the river would be very thin...I think you're up against a made higher flush or a fh, I would even consider folding to the turn cap, but probably wouldn't.

daryn · #5 12-17-2004, 10:32 AM

hand 1 is a mess. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

hand 2, easy to fix that problem, just bet out every time 4 of a suit comes on the river, whether you have the flush or not. you will be surprised how often you will be called by a worse hand, even when you don't have the flush.

helpmeout · #6 12-17-2004, 10:37 PM

1. I already stated my reasons for calling the flop, I felt that most players would call and there would be no raise.

I make these loose calls occassionally because the implied odds are good, no one puts a TAG on a gutshot straight so you get big action like I did on this hand. Of course its table dependant.

Both players had 2 pair.

2. UTG had AA no diamond. I usually bet into a preflop raiser on this kind of board because they dont want to be drawing dead. Usually they fold the turn unimproved (if they dont have a big pair).

LA_Price · #7 12-17-2004, 11:15 PM

I agree here about always betting the when the fourth of suit comes out on the river. The pot is big and a few good things can happen
1. He could call with a worse hand-try it and you'll be consistently amazed
2. He could possibly fold a better hand
3. He could call with a better hand but the pot is usually big on the river so 1 bet here isn't that big of a mistake.
4. He could raise which over 95% of the time means the nut flush. most opponents will just call with anything less. whether you fold or call this raise is entirely opponent and pot size dependent.

As for hand 1 same idea on the river. This isn't a situation to check and call. most people will check behind with anything less than the nuts in these scenarios. I usually like bet and fold to a raise(maybe call) or check and fold to raise if I really know the player(usually in a live setting).

Schneids · #8 12-17-2004, 11:37 PM

Hand two you need to bet the river because of the turn action. You might be beat but the thing is after the turn action, if you check to him on the river, he's never going to bet a worse hand when you check... So if you're checking, it's with the intentions of folding to a bet. And I highly doubt you're wishing to check/fold, so, that means you bet.

Also, hand 1 should be a bet on the river for reasons already stated. Based on the turn action that ensued your flop call is fine, though I speculate in the long run your call is a losing proposition based on how you described them (you expect them to call, but not raise, on the flop). That to me sounds like they're passive, so, given your bad position in relation to the flop better it is harder to maximize your earn against otherwise passive people to act behind you... If you hit on the turn and SB bets and you just call, they might fold behind you, and now you're relying on 2BB's on the river just to make your flop call around break even (fyi getting 5:1 on flop on 11:1 shot means you need to make up 6SB the rest of the way, if you hit on the turn)... Which doesn't include the times SB goes RR flush, or higher straight. Likewise, you can raise on the turn when you hit, again, giving you the same potential problems with earning at least 3BB's when you make the gutshot... since they probably won't call two cold, and the uncertain possibility the initial better will fold to your raise or check/fold the river.

helpmeout · #9 12-18-2004, 12:13 AM

(hand1)
I know my position sucks and it is pretty marginal call even with my reads.

I think whats favourable is that:

-There is no 2 flush on the board.
-I make a loose call that may result in less respect(omg that guy called with a gutshot he cant be very good).
-People wont put you on a straight on that board so someone with 2 pair, TPGK or a set will pay you off a lot.

Of course sometimes you will get beat by bigger hands on the river, although I think this is pretty rare so I'd think you only need to make maybe 1 extra SB to make the call worth it.

Now on the hand I expect at least one person behind me to call.
When I make my straight I of course call and hope a player behind me raises or at least calls(which is what passive players do).

If the player behind doesnt raise I of course raise or bet the river expecting at least SB to pay me off. There is also a chance where the player behind improves the river so they will either raise or at least call 2 bets with 2 pair.