Is there a wrong way to play quads?

[JordanIB]

I have generally strong aggression #s (1.49 including pre-flop), but often I feel like I'm playing scared.

This is obviously an extreme example, although maybe it's indicative of general issues. I will search around for someone better example of backing off with the aggression later in the hand, but for now:

Party Poker 0.5/1 Hold'em (8 handed)

Preflop: Hero is Button with Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls, MP2 folds, CO folds, <font color="CC3333">Hero raises</font>, SB calls, BB calls, UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls.

Standard pre-flop

Flop: (12 SB) T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="blue">(6 players)</font>
SB checks, BB checks, <font color="CC3333">UTG bets</font>, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls, <font color="CC3333">Hero raises</font>, SB folds, BB folds, UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, <font color="CC3333">MP1 3-bets</font>, <font color="CC3333">Hero caps</font>, UTG calls, UTG+1 folds, MP1 calls.

The dream flop. Late position allows me to raise all the callers, and keep pumping that pot. If the bet came later (let's say one position to my right) I think I might just call and hope for overcalls, and then turn the aggression up on the turn.

But wait! I'm trying to hone my skills of trying to read what certain betting patters may mean, and for some reason the limp/re-raise by MP1 sets alarm bells off in my head, and I figure there's a strong 10 out there somewhere. Still have to cap obviously.

Turn: (13 BB) 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="blue">(3 players)</font>
UTG checks, MP1 checks, <font color="CC3333">Hero bets</font>, UTG calls, <font color="CC3333">MP1 raises</font>, Hero calls, UTG calls.

A check-raise now by MP1? So I take a quick look at the aggression stats. In about 50 hands, he's .34 overall. .29 flop. .78 turn. Am I wrong to put him on TT here? I do, and call

River: (19 BB) Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="blue">(3 players)</font>
UTG checks, <font color="CC3333">MP1 bets</font>, <font color="CC3333">Hero raises</font>, UTG folds, <font color="CC3333">MP1 3-bets</font>, <font color="CC3333">Hero caps</font>, MP1 calls.

[i]I almost feel as though I'm bailed out by the river. Am I seeing monsters?

Final Pot: 27 BB
<font color="green">Main Pot: 27 BB, between Hero and MP1.</font>

[Hack]

Yes, you're seeing monsters. The chances of someone flopping quads are miniscule(.26% or something like that), and you have the 2nd nuts all the way to the river, when you gain the nuts. Someone is playing a strong 10, maybe KT or AT. They obviously haven't put you on the Queens full yet(how could they?), and I remember hearing somewhere that if you don't lose a lot of money with a set you played it wrong. If you don't lose a lot of money playing Queens full then you probably played it wrong too. Don't be scared until a third ten comes up, and by then the pot is too big to fold anyway, and the chances of you being beat are still slim, considering anyone with KK and AA still have inferior full houses to yours, 10s over and yours is queen over).

Anyone with a single ten is basically drawing dead save for the remaining ten.

You'll win this hand 99 times out of 100 in my opinion.

[Shillx]

The problem with not 3-betting the turn is not MP1, its UTG. Lets be super generous and say that MP1 will have TT 10% of the time, and we will say that UTG is drawing dead and will call max raises on the turn. I hope you see why the flat call is bad on 4th.

Shill

[Hack]

I agree with Shillx here. Pump the turn and obviously the river as well.

You're good so much of the time here that you want to get as much money in the pot as you possibly can.

Hands like this with lots of action don't come along very often. Sometimes when you flop a monster like this you won't get any action, so make the most of these chances that you get.

[Nick C]

I would 3-bet the turn and call a cap, especially with UTG hanging around contributing to the pot. If MP1 has TT, then that's how it goes. I think it's more likely he has something like AT.

Even without catching the queen, I would probably take it to a cap on the river as well. There are those hands where I can potentially lose a lot of money, and this is one of them.

[Nick Royale]

Actually I went all-in with a hand like yours on turn a couple a weeks ago. Lost 100$ to the quad tens cause my river wasn't as helpfull as yours. Still confident I played it right though...

[Hack]

That is no limit, though, and this is limit.

I assume that you would have no problem capping this all the way in a limit game, where if you do happen to lose the hand, your losses aren't magnified like they would be in no limit. At least I assume you're talking about no limit, because you mentioned all in, and I assume that you weren't just short on chips.

But anyway, in limit, in my opinion, there is no reason not to cap this hand unless a third ten were to come on the turn or river, and in that case I would 3 bet the turn and if capped I would call it and then call the river. But if that third ten doesn't come up, I am capping it, being very, very sure that I have the best hand. I don't want to lose bets that I could have had, because these types of hands(big hands, with lots of action) don't come along very often.

I think 9 times out of ten you'll be shown AT or a similar hand here.

[milesdyson]

If anything, on the turn, put him on QT, KT, or AT. He didn't raise preflop (but he seemed pretty passive anyway).

If you three bet and he caps the turn and leads the river, you should raise even without a queen. Only if he three bet the river after your turn cap could I even begin to remotely put him on TT. Even then, I would cap it.

[ncboiler]

Folding quads is the wrong way to play them. It's the most obvious wrong way in my simple mind.

[Smasharoo]

Am I wrong to put him on TT here?


Yes.

You're wrong to ever put anyone on quads in limit. The money you'll loose folding when you're wrong about it vastly outweighs what you'd save.

I'd have put him on QTs or something. Obviously that wasn't the case, but ever folding the nut full house in fear of quads without three on the board is insane.