Play my KK against detruncate for fun and profit

[irisheyes]

The 'nuance' I hope to present here is to teach an aspiring 2+2er how hard to push against a known TA-A, and to see if I made a decent line up to and on the river.


Party .5/1 10-handed
Hero is MP3 with K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]


Reads: UTG+1 is LP-P, MP1 is LA-P, and although I have no HH with him, I know detruncate has >700 posts here so I figure him for TA-A and then some.


Pre-flop:
UTG folds, UTG+1 calls, detruncate <font color="red">raises</font>, MP1 calls, 1 fold, Hero <font color="red">re-raises</font>, 3 folds, UTG+1 calls, detruncate <font color="red">caps</font>, MP1 calls, Hero calls, UTG+1 calls.

Flop [4 players] (8.75BB): 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]
UTG+1 checks, detruncate <font color="red">bets</font>, MP1 calls, Hero calls, UTG+1 calls.

Slowplay this on a ragged flop?


Turn [4 players] (10.75BB): A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]
UTG+1 <font color=" red">bets</font>, detruncate <font color=" red">raises</font>, MP1 calls, Hero <font color=" red">3-bets</font>, UTG+1 calls 2 cold again, detruncate <font color=" red">caps!</font>, MP1 now calls 2 cold, Hero and UTG+1 call.

So, I'm thinking to myself that detruncate clearly either has a strong hand (probably very good for me) or reads the three of us as complete idiots. With just a few hands against UTG+1 and MP1, and with 3 cold-calls from each of them, I'm thinking I'm very happy to be at this table. My only regret is slowplaying the flop with all the action I see on the turn.


River [4 players] (26.75BB!): 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]
UTG+1 checks, Detruncate <font color=" red">bets</font>, MP1 <font color=" red">raises</font>!?!, Hero ...?

From all the cold calling and the river raise from MP1, I'm thinking (maybe) quad 9's. The mantra here is "do not see monsters under the bed", and I'm feeling like a monster so I reach out and...

[Nick Royale]

If he flop a set of 9's he played it very passive, but when he gets this action from you, he maybe felt he didn't need to raise himself. Detruncate beats you with pocket A's...

Whehey, according to the the headline, my read is comepletly wrong... AK then [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[jzpiano14]

It looks like you might be beaten by AA or this guy has no clue to what's going on. I wouldn't fear wired 9's if this happens, chalk it up to a very bad beat and move on because the chances of it happening are slim. I would have played it the same way as you. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] Hope it turned out ok.

[irisheyes]

Well, you both read it right... but I bet it anyway. Here's the remainder:

UTG+1 checks, detruncate <font color=" red">bets</font>, MP1 <font color=" red">raises?!?</font>, Hero <font color=" red">3-bets</font>, UTG+1 folds, detruncate <font color=" red">caps</font> (ruh-roh), MP1 calls 2 cold again [how many is that 5, 6 times?] (double-ruh-roh), Hero calls.

detruncate shows A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] a full house, Aces full of nines.
MP1 doesn't show J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] three of a kind, nines. ???

detruncate wins $37.75 from the main pot with a full house, Aces full of nines.

MHINFG [img]/images/graemlins/shocked.gif[/img]

My only real questions are the slowplay on the flop and how bad the river 3-bet was. The slowplay was correct, right?

[irisheyes]

Oh, and a few hands later I solidified my table image by closing out the pre-flop round in the BB by accidentally folding an unraised pot [img]/images/graemlins/blush.gif[/img]

I mean the cards were bad, but not that bad.

[DMBFan23]

the slowplay was correct right?

the answer to this is almost never yes. in this case, you have a TAG who capped PF, who bet into the flop, and you can now put squarely on QQ, AA, or AK, two of which will give you MAJOR action on this flop and all of which you have CRUSHED.

if this were a small pot, and you werent sure who like their hand, and how much, then you can slowplay. this pot is way too big to be messing around in [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

detruncate re-sucks-out goot. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[detruncate]

I just managed to lose my response to this post, so I'm going try to hit the high points.

You have the advantage of knowing that I think about the game. This should allow you to get inside my head... especially since you know that I (probably) haven't played with you before.

So... what do I know about you? We've played a couple orbits and you haven't done anything to make me think that you're a maniac. In fact, all I really know is that you seem tight so far... but that's enough to narrow my hand down significantly when I cap you pf.

Given this range, what will I do if you raise me on the flop? MP1 is already trapped, and you're going to have to face (an oft cold-calling) UTG+1 with 2 cold at some point. Probably a better idea to do it on the flop. You slowplay to induce passive players to give more action than they ordinarily would. Knowing what you know about me, I'm unlikely to be passive. Weigh the chances of me being on something that doesn't like this flop vs what you stand to gain by raising me when I'm happy with it. If I 3-bet, you can count on me leading the turn. It all adds up to a raise.

For the record, I thought pocket Kings or a total whiff were most likely after you called.

The turn tells you I'm confident I can beat at least 2-pair. A tight seeming player 3-bet me pf, smooth-called the flop, 3-bet the turn... and I capped. What do you think I put you on? Also, what do you think I think you think I have? It would be silly going into that much complexity against a random player, but you should have a pretty good idea of my hand once I cap.

Which brings us to the river. You have 2 players you're almost certainly ahead of who have indicated that they're determined to donate to the winner. This mitigates the risk of making the wrong decision. I'm only likely to be on two hands. There are 3 combinations of AK and 2 of AA... so if you think I'm equally likely to be on both you're in good shape. But am I?

You're going to be capped when I'm on AA, meaning you lose 2 bets. Your raise usually wins you 3 bets when you're ahead. Sometimes UTG+1 will raise 9s full or even trip 9s when you're ahead of me, which would be groovy. With the 4-bet cap, UTG+1 doesn't factor in when you're behind me. Once in a blue moon you lose to quad 9s, but it's really not worth thinking about.

So... what's the play? Am I on AK often enough to make this raise +EV given card distribution and what you know about me?

Nice playing with you. Hope I didn't ruin your session. If it's any consolation, this pot is one of the few highlights of my day. Yeah... I didn't think so.

[irisheyes]

Thanks for the well thought-out response detruncate (and everyone)

I have no regrets about losing this hand at all. I take a few lessons from it, and as a got a chance to play in a tough situation with a better opponent. I just hope people take this post for more than just wimpering about [KK &lt; AA] -- I think most TAG newbies (at least me) don't quite know how to lay off the raise button when my hand looks like the winner.

Sure the pot was big, and it didn't help my stats for the night, but at least it was fun. I've had a great week and I guess I was feeling 10-feet tall and bulletproof (ugh... bad pun).

[JoshuaD]

[ QUOTE ]
Thanks for the well thought-out response detruncate.

I have no regrets about losing this hand at all. I take a few lessons from it, and as a got a chance to play in a tough situation with a better opponent. I just hope people take this post for more than just wimpering about [KK &lt; AA] -- I think most TAG newbies (at least me) don't quite know how to lay off the raise button when my hand looks like the winner.

Sure the pot was big, and it didn't help my stats for the night, but at least it was fun. I've had a great week and I guess I was feeling 10-feet tall and bulletproof (ugh... bad pun).

[/ QUOTE ]


Well, here's my two cents.

Even though you know one TAG's in the pot, you've got 3 callers on the flop who are going to call a raise. You have to raise this for value. You're not playing to beat detruncate, you're playing to make the most money in this hand. You do that by raising and betting the turn. You'd be more than happy to see trunctate fold his hand sometime during this - you'll no longer have to worry about dealing with a tricky player.

I think you fell victim to a mistake I do when I'm playing vs players I'm familiar with. I'm more concerned with beating them than I am with winning money. It seems like you were too busy trying to out maneuver detruncate, and forgot about the money.

You should also realize that the A is a scare card. It drops you to second nuts. It's not very scary, but all things considered, him being on AA is a distinct possibility. It wouldn't be scary enough to slow me down on the turn, but after alot of action on the flop and the turn, the 9 would scare me enough into check/calling. I don't think I'd be able to fold this unless the river came to me 3-bet, and even then I'd have to really think about it.

[TheHip41]

The slow play isn't horrible, but I'd raise because so many idiots seem willing to call unlimited bets while drawing dead. Once you hit a boat on the river, the only hands that beat you are AA, and 99. 3-betting the river is a good, aggressive play. If you lose set over set, so be it.