hmph

Jason Strasser · #1 11-10-2004, 01:44 PM

Mediocre eh? 200 sng party.

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t15 (8 handed)

UTG+1 (t1410)
MP1 (t855)
MP2 (t3285)
CO (t800)
Button (t975)
SB (t1095)
Hero (t925)
UTG (t655)

Preflop: Hero is BB with Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
UTG folds, UTG+1 folds, MP1 raises to t40, MP2 folds, CO folds, Button folds, SB calls t30, Hero calls t25.

Flop: (t120) 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (3 players)
SB checks, Hero checks, MP1 bets t75, SB folds, Hero calls t75.

Turn: (t270) 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, MP1 checks.

River: (t270) A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero bets t125

adanthar · #2 11-10-2004, 01:48 PM

Awesome. You fold if he bets the turn, though, right?

chill888 · #3 11-10-2004, 02:01 PM

It's OK - seen worse,

Personally i'd prefer a bet on the turn with a 4 flush board - if you are going to bluff.

If he doesn't have a club he is far more likely to fold when facing four than when facing five. People hate to fold made boards - eg 45678 - and will often call little bets.

stupidsucker · #4 11-10-2004, 03:08 PM

I have a lot to learn before moving up to the 100s.

I admit I would play this much differently. First off, I probably fold preflop. I understand that by doing so I may be folding away chip EV, but the position is bad, and even if I flop top pair my kicker sucks. I need more then top pair to play after the flop. (at least top pair plush a draw)

this flop comes and I fold to the bet. I just dont want to get involved.

Is betting the river here really worth it? I dont put him on a big flush card in pocket if he even has one at all, but isnt this a case where you are only going to get called if you are beat? If you check you have a good chance to split the pot.

I would deffenatly not bet the turn, its just asking to for him to go over the top of you because that Ac is not out yet. The river Ace clubs makes me feel a lot better about the board then any other club.

mart_ph · #5 11-10-2004, 03:57 PM

I completely agree with stupidsucker on this hand. Could someone explain the logic behind the other reasoning?

adanthar · #6 11-10-2004, 04:07 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Is betting the river here really worth it? I dont put him on a big flush card in pocket if he even has one at all, but isnt this a case where you are only going to get called if you are beat? If you check you have a good chance to split the pot.

[/ QUOTE ]

If strassa has a club he will probably check the turn. The other guy will check behind with a high club or no club, but will probably bet a medium club unless he tries a very ill advised bluff.

The river ace greatly lessens that chance of a high club. Sure, Villain might call with pocket tens and the Tc...but there are an awful lot of split hands he folds there and even a couple of winners.

I like this heads up bet and have used it before with good results at the 50's.

(Edit: I think the PF call is OK for what's essentially a minraise. The flop call is kinda marginal but the turn card and Villain's bet should determine where you stand.)

ThorGoT · #7 11-10-2004, 04:52 PM

Good move. But what do you do if opponent reraises? Put differently, what percentage of the time do you call a 125 reraise (250 total)?

J.A.Sucker · #8 11-10-2004, 05:38 PM

Fold preflop. Give up on the flop. Fire on the turn. Give up on the river. That's how I would have played it had I somehow been forced to play the hand. Bad position, deepish money, and the structure of these tourneys makes these hands killers.

stupidsucker · #9 11-10-2004, 05:41 PM

I agree with the turn and river actions. It is the preflop and flop actions that get to me. This certainly cant be the flop you are looking for when you come in with QJs.

I see this as a better line for a cash game then a tourney game. I also am saying this assuming I am wrong. I just want to know why I am wrong.

chill888 · #10 11-10-2004, 07:00 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I have a lot to learn before moving up to the 100s.

I admit I would play this much differently. First off, I probably fold preflop. I understand that by doing so I may be folding away chip EV, but the position is bad, and even if I flop top pair my kicker sucks. I need more then top pair to play after the flop. (at least top pair plush a draw)

this flop comes and I fold to the bet. I just dont want to get involved.

Is betting the river here really worth it? I dont put him on a big flush card in pocket if he even has one at all, but isnt this a case where you are only going to get called if you are beat? If you check you have a good chance to split the pot.

I would deffenatly not bet the turn, its just asking to for him to go over the top of you because that Ac is not out yet. The river Ace clubs makes me feel a lot better about the board then any other club.

[/ QUOTE ]

No, you probably don't have too much to learn.

Personally, i think this is an interesting hand because almost every street is worth a touch of debate and is opponent driven. But to your point, you can't go much wrong just plain avoiding this hand.

On the other hand, it's not a bad hand and you can get in cheaply. Next, I HATE flush boards and avoid them like the plague. BUT .. they are great bluffing boards. When the board is 4 clubs on the turn.... well the odds are usually that your opponent doesn't have a club (unless he shown some real interest in the hand). It's often worth a stab/bet.....but almost never worth going broke on.

Finally, when the board is a made hand after the river, betting dynamics are always interesting. I wouldn't have bet here usually..... but against certain very tight opponents. Why not?

Interesting hand. And yes I would have usually folded or called preflop and shutdown after the flop ... but again I think there are lots of close decisions here. As always, knowing your opponents is worth $$$$'s.

my 2 cents and gl