Ak v. paired flop

wuwei · #1 11-05-2004, 02:04 AM

UTG is unknown
BB is very LP preflop, P postflop

(edit: had reads backwards)

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (10 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, 1 fold, Hero raises, 4 folds, SB calls, BB calls, UTG calls, UTG+1 calls.

Flop: (10 SB) K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (5 players)
SB checks, BB checks, UTG checks, UTG+1 checks, Hero bets, SB calls, BB calls, UTG calls, UTG+1 folds.

Turn: (7 BB) 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (4 players)
SB checks, BB bets, UTG calls, Hero raises, SB folds, BB calls, UTG calls.

River: (13 BB) Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (3 players)
BB bets, UTG raises, Hero folds, BB calls.

Final Pot: 17 BB

StellarWind · #2 11-05-2004, 02:13 AM

Looks good. You won't be good on the river nearly often enough.

wuwei · #3 11-05-2004, 02:32 AM

I'm comfortable with the river fold. When UTG wakes up, it's pretty clear I'm beat.

I'm actually more curious about the turn. My weak tight tendencies kicked in, and I was tempted to just call the turn when a known passive player (100 hands in PT) pulls that bet on me and the other guy has already called 1 bet. After thinking it over, I decided to go for the raise.

When I had time after the hand, I took a look at the actual numbers and saw a postflop aggression factor of .3. Would knowing that number change your play?

I'd love to hear your thoughts on the turn. You ever think about just calling? What would be some criteria for doing so?

StellarWind · #4 11-05-2004, 03:01 AM

The turn bet sounds like one pair preventing a free card. Many fairly passive players like to jab the PFR this way.

Tens rarely appear at this exact time. Why wait until the turn unless you are going for the checkraise?

Calling could be indicated by a read. Calling makes more sense in general with fewer opponents. Extra callers pad the odds so I don't need to win as often for the raise cost to be worthwhile in terms of bets gained and outs folded.

luckycharms · #5 11-05-2004, 03:03 AM

Nice bet on the flop

On the turn, with that many callers, I'd honestly be in check/fold mode. Someone definitely has a ten at that point, people play larger cards, and if someone bets and there's 3 other people in there, they're not going to bet anything that doesn't beat your hand, especially with other callers. You can't even argue for a call here, a big bet in a 7BB pot to catch one of 2 outs? I think a fold on the turn.

I'm sooooo folding on the river.... maybe I'm wrong, I'm mostly a NL player.

mcozzy1 · #6 11-05-2004, 03:17 AM

This might be a dumb question, but if you are prepared to spend 2 bets, why not called the turn and call the river rather than raise the turn and fold the river? It's the same number of bets.

StellarWind · #7 11-05-2004, 03:18 AM

[ QUOTE ]
On the turn, with that many callers, I'd honestly be in check/fold mode. Someone definitely has a ten at that point, people play larger cards, and if someone bets and there's 3 other people in there, they're not going to bet anything that doesn't beat your hand, especially with other callers. You can't even argue for a call here, a big bet in a 7BB pot to catch one of 2 outs? I think a fold on the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]
I'm only a limit player. You will die if you fold this turn on a regular basis playing limit hold'em.

There are only two tens outstanding. Your opponents brought only eight cards to the flop. Most of the time none of them will be a ten and you have the best hand. You cannot fold what is usually the best hand because someone bets 1/7 of the pot backed by the dire threat to repeat the same small bet on the river. You don't have to be right very often for calling down to be the correct play.

chesspain · #8 11-05-2004, 03:21 AM

[ QUOTE ]
The turn bet sounds like one pair preventing a free card. Many fairly passive players like to jab the PFR this way.

Tens rarely appear at this exact time. Why wait until the turn unless you are going for the checkraise?

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't know if I agree with this. I've seen plenty of LP-P players who checkcall the flop with trips (since they're scared of betting out and having no one call) and then get scared on the turn of losing bets, so they bet out there. Do you really think it's likely that a very loose-passive BB is betting into a PF raiser and another player on this turn with just one pair?

[ QUOTE ]
Calling could be indicated by a read. Calling makes more sense in general with fewer opponents. Extra callers pad the odds so I don't need to win as often for the raise cost to be worthwhile in terms of bets gained and outs folded.

[/ QUOTE ]

Given the context of the board and the fact that Hero is facing a bet, a call, and has only one player left to act, I think I would just call. The only hand SB might fold that you would actually want him to fold is a gutshot. Otherwise, Hero has one of those "way behind or way ahead" hands that would just like to get to a showdown for exactly one bet on every street if possible, meaning that if I only called the turn I would probably just call the river, although I would likely bet the river if it was checked to me.

StellarWind · #9 11-05-2004, 03:28 AM

[ QUOTE ]
This might be a dumb question, but if you are prepared to spend 2 bets, why not called the turn and call the river rather than raise the turn and fold the river? It's the same number of bets.

[/ QUOTE ]
Reasonable idea heads up. But with three opponents you want to charge people to draw or force them out before they see the river card.

Anyway, if the raise is called, I am not taking a free showdown on a reasonable river card. I refuse to accept that such a suspicious turn bet is trips. Certainly if it backs down when I raise I don't think it is trips. I proceed believing I have the best hand by betting and raising.

The river was folded because we got a horrible river card, BB bet again in spite of our raise, UTG suddenly came to life, and we have to call at least two bets to see the showdown. This would be an easy call if UTG had just called BB's bet.

StellarWind · #10 11-05-2004, 03:37 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I don't know if I agree with this. I've seen plenty of LP-P players who checkcall the flop with trips and then get scared on the turn of losing bets, so they bet out.

[/ QUOTE ]
Me too. There are so many paired flops that every possible way of playing trips happens a lot. But kings and pocket pairs still greatly outnumber tens in my experience when this turn bet comes.

This is a situation where a read is worth a thousand generalizations.

[ QUOTE ]
Given the context of the board and the fact that Hero is facing a bet, a call, and has only one player left to act, I think I would just call. The only hand SB might fold that you would actually want him to fold is a gutshot. Otherwise, Hero has one of those "way behind or way ahead" hands that would just like to get to a showdown for as cheap as possible from this point.

[/ QUOTE ]
So they all call. I'm fine with taking SB's money. I think I'm "way ahead" (will somehow win) a lot more than 1/4 or even 1/3 of the time. I'm raising for value.

The way ahead/way behind idea is usually better heads up when the odds on extra action aren't being padded by marginal contributors.