Any way to slow down here against a maniac??

RiverTheNuts · #1 11-01-2004, 03:45 PM

This guy had been calling raises with marginal hands, and drawing to straights and flushes when it was -EV to do so... should I have played this differently or slowed down at any point? When I pushed I had him on AT or two overcard spades

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ BB (9 handed)

BB ($25.55)
UTG ($24.5)
UTG+1 ($52.9)
Hero ($26.75)
MP2 ($141.8)
MP3 ($22.65)
CO ($4.4)
Button ($23.6)
SB ($54.85)

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]. SB posts a blind of $0.25.
UTG raises to $1, UTG+1 calls $1, Hero raises to $3, MP2 folds, MP3 folds, CO folds, Button folds, SB (poster) folds, BB folds, UTG calls $2, UTG+1 calls $2.

Flop: ($9.75) T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (3 players)
UTG checks, UTG+1 checks, Hero bets $10, UTG calls $10, UTG+1 folds.

Turn: ($29.75) 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
UTG checks, Hero bets $13.75 (All-In), UTG calls $11.50 (All-In).

River: ($55) 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players, 2 all-in)

Final Pot: $55

Results below:


TheCubsFan1 shows [ Td, Tc ] a full house, Tens full of threes.
rcrooks shows [ Jc, Jh ] two pairs, jacks and threes.
rcrooks wins $2.25 from side pot #1 with two pairs, jacks and threes.
TheCubsFan1 wins $50.15 from the main pot with a full house, Tens full of threes.

amoeba · #2 11-01-2004, 03:56 PM

I don't like the reraise preflop with JJ.Its not too bad though.

I think due to shallowness of stacks, you are pretty much all in on the turn.

I think after the flop, I would have pretty much played it exactly the same.

RiverTheNuts · #3 11-01-2004, 04:13 PM

If I just call there, everyone and their mother will jump into that pot, and the jacks will turn into a crappy pair basically... hit a set or fold... at least that was my thinking with the small reraise... plus, if someone else reraises again I can confidently put them on AA, KK, or QQ and either call and check/fold or lay it down, depending on the raise size

amoeba · #4 11-01-2004, 04:20 PM

in early position I do find jacks to be a crappy pair. I might be too weak.

I dont like to reraise despite the fact that its a minbet due to the huge number of players who incorrectly minbet with AA, KK.

I think months ago, I would have reraised preflop just as you did, but after reading the QQ thread in which JohnG went over the points for smoothcalling preflop with QQ, I would just smooth call JJ in this case.

tdomeski · #5 11-01-2004, 07:05 PM

If you are going to re raise preflop then you need to re raise more to try to end the hand. . .

Given the action I *might* check the turn and call the river (as he may throw out a smaller "call" me bet on river or check his AA or KK to the spade).

RiverTheNuts · #6 11-02-2004, 10:16 AM

Why does a raise always need to be about ending hands??? My raise was for information from the rest of the table, having the lead post-flop, and to juice the pot with this guy, who I thought I had beat if he didnt threeraise me

Tilt · #7 11-02-2004, 05:31 PM

Preflop: I don't like the raise either with JJ...would rather hide in the weeds and hit a set. I don't see what info you are realy getting. Sometimes I call these raises preflop with suited connectors or underpairs knowing that if I hit a set/straight/flush players will push or bet large high pairs on a raggedy flop. Problem for you is you don't know if the raggedy flop is has hit it big for someone else. And I think you are giving more information than you are getting.

Flop: I like betting out, but only bet the pot I think.

Turn: Your reads were that this guy chases too much, but if he really is a maniac wouldnt he have raised you on the turn with a draw? Thats what I expect from a real maniac. And if so, warning bells go off for me when they just call. Usually means they have a monster. So betting all in just feeds the monster. Granted you may have no choice by now anyway, but if you had bet smaller on the flop, checked the turn and he went all-in, you might think about folding.

I think you have to be more patient...hit a set or the nuts and then get him. Trying to force it just gets you burned.

etgryphon · #8 11-02-2004, 05:57 PM

His play doesn't seem crazy on this hand, maybe out of character. But we maybe getting into people's definition of maniac. Do we consider a calling station to be a maniac? I don't...so i would have been very suspect of his play.

Preflop
I think it is best to be the first to put the raise in fo a JJ. I actually advocate raising with the JJ preflop but not after someone has raised it in front of me and I'm in early position. I think the smooth call is the best...

Flop
I think this is a nice play because you are trying are making the odds poor for a drawing hand. You are also putting him in for half of his stack which kinda half your stack as well. His call right here should send warning bells if he is maniac (ie he raises a lot and plays trash aggressively).

Turn + River
Slow down and go in to calling mode. The 3 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] is a really scary card because of boat, trips, flush potential with garbage on the board with a maniac.

-Gryph