Incredibly important SH/flop is HU question to all you open-raisers.

[Grisgra]

The only thing I hate about open-raising is that it seems to commit you to aggression on the flop and turn, and when you've missed a few flops in a row, it seems to cost you a lot more money than limping in and seeing if you hit TP would otherwise might.

Let's say I'm new to the 5/10 table. I open-raise from UTG +1 with QJ [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].

Instance 1) Button calls, others fold.
Instance 2) BB calls, others fold.

Flop comes K [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 9 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 7 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].

1) BB checks, I bet, he calls. Turn is
1a) 2 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]. What do I do now?
1b) K [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] What do I do now?
1c) 8 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]. What do I do now?

2) I bet, button calls. Turn is
2a) 2 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]. What do I do now?
2b) K [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] What do I do now?
2c) 8 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] What do I do now?

If they both just call by turn bet (I've been betting in all of these situations), do I check/fold river, or bet it out again if it's a blank?

FYI, if an Ace or 3rd spade hit on the TURN, I'm generally betting out, thinking it's more likely it's a scare card than they were waiting for it to hit (and then folding to any raise or resistance).

FYI II: It's nice I have an inside-straight draw and a backdoor flush possibility on the flop, but I probably bet out without it anyway. Obviously, by the turn those odds have gone to hell.

There are a lot of situations LIKE this where I don't have odds, or there's an ace on the flop, or I don't have overcards to two cards on the board (and so have extra outs against middle pairs), etc., but let's cover these instances first.

FYI III: I am seriously considering doing a little open-limping. At the moment I'll only do it with a tiny Axs on a really loose table, ditto small pockets. Just so that I don't create a pattern of Being That Guy That Always Bets The Flop No Matter What.

[kiddo]

This is a boring answer but I would say u have to bet flop and that turnbet is playerdependent.

As a rule I dont like check-calling, if I want to see river I "always" bet. I think I bet to little on turn but there are a lot of players that bet to much and you can make a lot from them calling them down with any pair.

I would always bet turn if any flopcard paired cause then its much bigger chance they are not hit by anything.

QJ is a marginal hand, no need to always bet turn, better to do it with A high. Bet both flop, turn and river with Q high is normally a misstake.

[Grisgra]

I just noticed I gave myself 4 more outs in 1c) and 2c) -- I'm probably betting the turn in both of those cases.

[joker122]

1) BB checks, I bet, he calls. Turn is
1a) 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] What do I do now? Bet 10% of the time, check 90%
1b) K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] What do I do now? Bet at least half the time
1c) 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] What do I do now? same as 1a.

2) I bet, button calls. Turn is
2a) 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] What do I do now?
2b) K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] What do I do now?
2c) 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] What do I do now?

I'd bet each of these maybe 10% of the time (betting the king closer to 20%) but I'm inclined to check/fold this turn most of the time.

[ QUOTE ]
If they both just call by turn bet (I've been betting in all of these situations),

[/ QUOTE ]

Like 100% of the time? You're probably pounding too hard. They can only take so much pounding until they start to call down with next to nothing, and a hand like QJ has no showdown value.


[ QUOTE ]
FYI, if an Ace or 3rd spade hit on the TURN,

[/ QUOTE ]

An ace is like the almighty Card for these guys. They fold really fast when they see it. You should use it as a bluff card everytime you can.


[ QUOTE ]
FYI III: I am seriously considering doing a little open-limping. At the moment I'll only do it with a tiny Axs on a really loose table, ditto small pockets. Just so that I don't create a pattern of Being That Guy That Always Bets The Flop No Matter What.

[/ QUOTE ]

I wouldn't reccomend this...like at all. You're probably just running bad and missing some flops.

[I Play 2 Ski]

[ QUOTE ]
Just so that I don't create a pattern of Being That Guy That Always Bets The Flop No Matter What.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'd rather be this guy than "The GUY That Only Bets A Made Hand On the Flop"

So much of my decision making is player dependant that I cant answer the questions definatively. It all just depends. Although I don't take it to extremes I do believe that you have to give a little action to get it back.

[TwoNiner]

[ QUOTE ]
The only thing I hate about open-raising is that it seems to commit you to aggression on the flop and turn, and when you've missed a few flops in a row........

[/ QUOTE ]

Welcome to Twoniner's October!

I really don't have much to add except that this is the pain in the ass part of shorthanded play. I think you can limp with QJ suited every once in awhile if you've been raising alot recently, otherwise you're probably better off raising it. Like I said, this missing every flop possible is the same thing that's been happening to me. I've just started trying to limit my tables on focus on the players more so I can pick better spots to push or back off.

Good Luck.

[Grisgra]

Annoying thing is that I don't know if checking the turn so often in these cases is right . . . I think a lot of the time the Villain is calling the flop with a wuss under-pocket, bottom pair, or Ace-rag, hoping that he hits on the turn and ready to fold if he doesn't. And I can't know that until . . . I bet [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img].

And they DO fold to that second bet a half-decent amount of the time. I think. But not recently. Aaaargh. Well, thanks for the opin'. It's very easy to get recent-results-oriented with this. I wish there was an easy filter I could run through PT to get me the EV results I need.

I think maybe I need to have the discipline to keep specific records on this problem . . . it'll be annoying but it'd be super useful down the line. For the moment, I think I'm going to scale back to betting it maybe one-third to one-half of the time. (I probably don't bet it 100% at the moment . . . more like 75%.)

[Grisgra]

It's nice to say it's all player dependent, but this decision often comes up before you have any player read, and it'd be good to have a default. If he's ready to lay down bottom pair, I'll bet it. If I've been running well, showed down great hands recently, I'll bet it. If he's a known calling station and I know he calls down with bottom pair, I'll lay off immediately.

But 75%+ of the time, I don't know enough yet about the player to put him into one of those slots.

[I Play 2 Ski]

Understood. I'll err on the side of agression. I don't give people credit for anything until I have reason too.

[joker122]

Come to think of it, they only need to fold like 1 in 7 times for the bet to be profitable. The problem is they are just so damn loose. The other problem is is that you often will have only 4 outs (in your example) but sometimes 0 outs. Yet another problem, as I and others have mentioned, is that QJ has no showdown value. I know you're only concerned with trying to pick up the pot right there but having A high or even K high you should be more inclined to bet because you will be in a spot where the river goes check-check very often.

But I still admit, my 10-20% estimate was too low, and I probably do bet more often than that, even with a hand like QJ.

A huge factor is your image and what you've done thus far, how much semi bluffing you've done and how many times you've gotten caught. Another is of course your opponents.