How is Kerry losing the Vietnam 'battle'?

[DanS]

I really don't get it.

You have a guy who served, some would argue valiantly, and was deep in the sh!t. He had the gall to question the war, our exit plan, and our general modus operandi.

On the other hand, you have a guy who missed a physical, protected the Gulf Coast from the Viet Cong, and a V.P. who HAD FIVE DRAFT DEFERMENTS!

I'm anything but a bleeding heart liberal, but I'm going to pass on OCS as long as Bush is in office.

Dan

P.S. He's a douche, but Karl Rove is doing something right.

[Dynasty]

Kerry's Senate testimony back in the early '70's forever damned him in the eyes of lots of Vietnam veterans (inlcuding my father). It's something that they'll never forgive. For those who are first hearing the testimony today (or just realizing it's our current Presidential candidate who did that), it's shocking to hear.

It has nothing to do with Rove. These veterans have held a genuine grudge against Kerry for thirty years. The reasons their charges hurt Kerry so badly in August and have stuck to him is because they are based in truth.

[wacki]

I agree wiht Dynasty. Rove had nothing to do with it. Complaining about not serving flawlessly in the National Guard or having deferments is not going to cut it when we elected a president that went to Canada to avoid the draft.

Kerry's own words hurts him more than anything else.

Kerry's Own Words

[El Barto]

Dynasty is right.

Also, no one expected everyone to serve in the war (unlike WWII, we didn't need most men of the right age to serve). But if you did serve, you better cover the back of your fellow soldiers (both in combat and in post-combat investigations).

Kerry didn't keep his mouth shut, he testified to Congress. That is unforgivable, especially since he was not giving eye witness testimony, but rather passing on third hand other people's stories.

What little Bush did, and he did more than most (most men did not serve in any capacity at all), the one thing he did not do is betray his fellow guardsmen.

[anatta]

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For those who are first hearing the testimony today (or just realizing it's our current Presidential candidate who did that), it's shocking to hear.

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I first heard the testimony within the past year, it wasn't shocking to me. I think Kerry had a duty to testify to try to end the War which everybody knew was a mistake, including Nixon admitting as much in tapes. The only reason men were dying was for political reasons, this is documented fact. Kerry asked "How do you ask a man to be the last man to die for a mistake?" Absolutely.

Kerry was a kid, angry at the War. He did not intend to smear his fellow vets. If it came across that way, he made a mistake. People make mistakes. Hell, Bush was a drunk at the time. Everybody makes mistakes. Its a shame the wounds of Vietnam are such that Vets can't forgive.

[cjromero]

Just as Kerry had the right (some would say the obligation) to speak out against the war when he returned, Vietnam vets certainly have the right to feel betrayed by him, especially when POWs had to hear Kerry's testimony piped into their cells. Can you imagine how demoralizing that would be? My father served in Vietnam, and he feels exactly that way. It is hard for vets to accept that regular Americans didn't support them while they were in harms' way. It is even harder to accept that a fellow soldier not only didn't support you, but was testifying that you were a war criminal while you were still over there.

The reason Bush's National Guard service and Cheney's deferrments haven't stuck is because they did what plenty of other American males either did or wanted to do.

[Dynasty]

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I think Kerry had a duty to testify to try to end the War which everybody knew was a mistake, including Nixon admitting as much in tapes...Kerry asked "How do you ask a man to be the last man to die for a mistake?" Absolutely.

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It wasn't the "How do you ask..." line which bothered veterans. It was the accusations that U.S. soldiers were committing war crimes on a daily basis. The average U.S. soldier in Vietnam was a 19 year old who was thrown into a war they didn't necessarily want to be a part of. They weren't war criminals who had...raped, cut off ears, cut off heads, taped wires from portable telephones to human genitals and turned up the power, cut off limbs, blown up bodies, randomly shot at civilians, razed villages in fashion reminiscent of Genghis Khan, shot cattle and dogs for fun, poisoned food stocks, and generally ravaged the countryside of South Vietnam...

It shouldn't be hard to understand why veterans won't forgive Kerry for that.

[anatta]

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The average U.S. soldier in Vietnam was a 19 year old who was thrown into a war they didn't necessarily want to be a part of.

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How many more 19 year olds had to be thrown into a war that was a mistake? How many more had to die? Can you imagine being in Kerry's shoes? He is a smart guy who was in the [censored]. He knew how senseless the War was. NIXON knew too. So he was desparate that Congress, that American, that everybody must know that this War must end.

Without the popular support, the War eventually ended. I think Vietnam Vets against the War made an inpact in getting us out of Vietnam. All the protests did, but there was something very powerful about Vets protesting. Kerry's testimony was on the Network News for Five Minutes. This is a time before cable. Heck, the President doesn't get five minutes unless its the State of the Union.

If Kerry's work against the War had an X probablity of getting us out of the War Y months earier. How many men did he save?? How many innocent Vietnamese people were saved???

[Dynasty]

You're arguing that Kerry was right to be anit-war. That isn't what outrages veterans (although many don't like it). It's the accusations that they were committing war crimes on a daily basis which outrages them.

If Kerry was simply some anti-war guy who moved up in the political world, it wouldn't be an issue. It's an issue because Kerry accused ordinary soldiers of war crimes. So, when an ordinary soldier who didn't do those things, or see others do it, hears Kerry accuse soldiers of those crimes, it's going to feel like an incredible injustice.

[anatta]

Since there is a lot of bitterness still from the Vietnam War, I agree with you, it is understandable that some Vets can't forgive Kerry thirty years later. Nonetheless, they are bitter at a kid whose words were mistinterpreted while he was saving lives. Its not Kerry's fault, as his mistake was not intentional, but rather the result of reckless youth in a noble cause. Its not the Vets fault, as the times skarred them, and I can see how Kerry added to this. It might be past time for forgiveness, but its not really for me to say.