Why do I have so much trouble moving up?

[ElSapo]

A year ago I played a lot of 3/6. Like a lot of posters here, I won a fair amount of money. And then at some point my expectations got out of wack from reality - I lost a bit, lost a bit more, tilted, and so on. When it was all said and done I had withdrawn the bulk of my bankroll (to protect it from myself) and I began again -- much like what Gamblor was discussing.

Since then, I've done the same thing a few times. Building small amounts of money to moderate amounts, cashing out, and so on.

In the last couple of months I've become determined to move on. I do believe I can beat games higher than 2/4, but lately that's what I stick myself at.

Bankroll is not really the issue - - I am more than bankrolled for 3/6, approaching 5/10. It's the actual money involved, I think.

I just played a 3/6 hand a moment ago. I raised with AKs, got two callers and was bet into on the flop. I raised, and bet the turn. On the river, checked to me, and I wanted to check behind. I wanted to, but I know he'll call with many, many hands I beat. I bet, he called, my hand is good but I find that my hands are sweating.

Playing 2/4 it's automatic.

Why is there this much difference for me? And what can I do to get over it?

I also have weird tilt issues with bankroll levels in general -- say I sit down with $2200 in my bankroll. I win $130, and have $2330. Then I lose $40. For some reason, this irritates me as I've dropped below some sort of weird "mark" of $2,300.

I have some weird money issues and I'm trying to find ways to get over them.

ElSapo

[Sundevils21]

don't keep going back to "cashier" to see what your total is. Just check at the beginning and ends of sessions. Helps me not fret over a couple pots here and there.

[J.R.]

I declare you a 3-6 player. Set the party client so that when you open up the client, all you see are 3-6 hold'em tables. Play poker. The limit is irrelevent becuase this is the only limit there is (for you). Don't think in terms of winning or losing bets, think only in terms of getting in x number of hands each week. Play those number of hands. Keep doing it. Don't look at games in other limits. Don't constantly check the cashier. Meet you hand goals. You are a 3-6 player.

[SirArthur]

I used to continually monitor my BR during a session, and I found that it negatively impacted my play.

Here's an example, I'd think to myself, I'm up just over $200 this session, if I get involved with this speculative hand, and miss my draw I won't have a plus $200 session going.

So anyway, I try not to look at my BR until I'm done with my session, sometimes I can't help myself, but I don't look that often or at all anymore. Since I've overcome my BR obsession, I've noticed that my play, and profits have improved.

[LetsRock]

To me it's absolutely critcal to focus on SB and BB. Forget the dollar amounts.

It's natural to freak out a little when moving up. "$20? on one bet? Are you crazy? I can play for half an hour on $20 at 1/2!"

It's critacal to focus on the betting structure and play your game according to the BB relationship. Count the pot in number of bets rather than dollars. Look at your stack in terms of number of bets rather than dollars. It's easier to do live than on-line because everything is reppresented in dollars.

ALso, there's nothing wrong with sticking to a limit that your'e comfortable at. It's better to make a steady profit, then to risk playing scared at a higher limit.

[Reef]

you think about losing $70 in a day as losing a pair of sneakers and dinner.. don't. Think of it as chips and paying off the downward swings of standard deviation. Anyway, you're playing all on profit aren't you? As long as you keep learning is the main thing.

[O Doyle Rules]

Hey El Sapo,

I believe I used to see you alot at the $3/$6 tables and I always regarded you as a very solid player. I too seem to suffer from being able to detach myself from the dollars lost when playing poker. I have comfortably settled in playing $5/$10 and $3/$6 where I have adjusted to the actual dollars that can be lost.

This is where our stories are similar. Twice I have attempted the limits of $10/$20 & $15/$30 only to suffer big downswings. I sometimes think I have really messed up in that I should have cashed my profits at the lower limits instead of dropping that profit playing the higher limits.

However, my longterm goal is to become a winning player at the higher limits and I realize that I must forego some short term profits to be able to realize that goal.

I think you need to determine what exactly your goal is playing poker. If your goal is to cash x amount of profit out of the game each month, then pursue a strategy that will help you to reach that goal. If your goal is to play higher limits, focus on that and "try" to forget about the short term profit. Whatever your goal is to be, make sure it is one that makes you feel content about your poker playing. Hope this helps.

[ChicagoTroy]

A while back I moved up from $5-10 live to $10-20 with a half kill. This was a little disconcerting because when I raised a kill pot on the turn or river and the dealer said "Make it sixty" (or ninety!) it freaked me out.

So one night I saw a very weak $20-40 HK game, sat in it for an hour, and played a few half kill pots. When my $10-20 seat opened I sat down, and noticed that I didn't worry about the cash involved in a $15-30 hand anymore after playing $30-60 ones. Instant cure.

Since you don't seem to have a problem staying at the limit you're at, I'd work up a bankroll for $5-10. Play 100 hands per day, no more no less, on one table only, for ten days. Unless you are an absolute miserable poker player (I doubt it) you'll be fine (Worst case scenario, you'll still be BR'd for $3-6 & $2-4). Then go down to the $3-6 game and see how you do.

You must tell yourself to think in BB, not dollars. You must stop looking at the cahier page during a session. You must not sweat individual sessions too much. If you can't do this, you may have hit the ceiling for where you can play.

BTW, I looked at my PT stats last night, and in October I am winning 6 BB/100 at $2-4, but losing 49.5% of my sessions. I'd go nuts if I looked at individual sessions too closely, since I've lost half of them.

[ElSapo]

Many thanks for all the comments and suggestions. I feel like typing for a bit, so I will...

I think I'm going to try and move up gradually. Split some time between 2/4 and 3/6, try and get mostly to 3/6, and then split time for 5/10, and so on. It's obvious that moving up all at once is freaking me out a bit, so this may be a better plan.

To all those who said be sure and look in terms of BB and now monetary value - I certainly do this when making decisions, it's simply that another part of me still notes that the pots are bigger. I still do all the same in-game calculations based on BB and all that; whatever is making my hands sweat when the pot swells is coming from somewhere else. I feel the same at times in a 2/4 game when the pot hits like 30 BB and you're calling for the board to pair...

I think the gradual move up is a good plan because in many ways the games play so differently (at times, anyways, and maybe generally, though you certainly find loose-passive 3/6 and 5/10 games). I sat last night at 3/6 for an hour and it was completely loose-agressive. And my problem isn't really dealing with LAG games or LAG players, but in not becoming one myself. Some game adjustments are necessary, but I find myself three-betting more just because it's the thing to do, and I suspect this is a subtle (or not-so subtle) form of tilt when I overdo it.

For example, I open-raised A7o from somewhere in MP after I wasn't able to see a flop for a while. I need to post hands on specific stuff, but I don't think this is a good raise. But I did it anyway because everyone was raising and I felt the need to get in there.

I also raised 88 from the CO after four limpers, only to get three-bet by the button with 77. The game play is significantly different at times.

These are great games, no doubt - but I have to make sure I'm playing -my- game, with adjustments, and not trying to play someone else's game.

5/10 from what I've seen is generally tighter and slightly more passive.

One hand in 5/10 - I open-raised 99 from MP, got called in 1 spot. Flop was Q82, I bet, he raised, I three-bet and he capped. This was an agressive player but I check-folded the turn. I think he had a Q, but I questioned my play.

I'm also finding many players wait until the river to raise, say, flopped trips for instance, because the agressive 3/6 players almost always bet the river.

So, many changes I just need to adjust to. But the key I think is not adjusting -too- much. I can beat the 2/4 games easily and without too much thought. I need to keep that same game I have, generally.

To keep this post generally on psychology aspects -- I can beat the 3/6 games, I don't think this is the issue. For some reason, this time around, I am having trouble getting comfortable again. I think, as one poster put it, it simply takes some getting used to. After a while at 5/10, 3/6 didn't seem so big.

I need to make some adjustments; I also need to just allow myself to get comfortable. Ultimately, I also need to understand the long-term and short-term swings of the game. There's a tremendous difference between knowing something, logically, and accepting it. Logically I know I wont have a winning session every time, and logically I know there will be swings. Really accepting this is apparently tougher.

Thanks for all the comments, and any more. I do appreciate them.

ElSapo

[ElSapo]

One other comment - Someone mentioned that I need to look at why I play, what my goals are. I think this is tremendously important.

I think expectation is key. At the end of 2003, after going on a four-month tear at 3/6, I hit a snag. Maybe I broke even for a while, maybe I started losing. But after winning consistently for months, I started to forget what was normal, what I could reasonably expect. I think that's key. My reaction to the dip wasn't good because I didn't have perspective.

I think one of the keys to becoming a long-term winning player is understanding how the game works - really knowing and accepting dry spells that stretch thousands of hands. Some of this only comes with experience, I expect.

ElSapo