I think an example of GOOD aggression.

AdamL · #1 09-22-2004, 02:28 AM

This is a hand a friend sent me. The preflop raise is questionable from the BB but not horrible given the small number of limpers. From the button this would be an easy raise preflop.

I'm interested in his flop play onward. A lot of people play this situation passively and I liked his aggression.

Comments?

Party Poker 0.50/1 Hold'em (9 handed)

Preflop: Hero is BB with Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
2 folds, MP1 calls, 2 folds, CO calls, 2 folds, Hero raises, MP1 calls, CO calls.

Flop: (6.50 SB) 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (3 players)
Hero bets, MP1 calls, CO raises, Hero 3-bets, MP1 calls $0.50 (All-In), CO calls.

Turn: (7.25 BB) 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (3 players, 1 all-in)
Hero bets, CO calls.

River: (9.25 BB) 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (3 players, 1 all-in)
Hero bets, CO raises, Hero 3-bets, CO calls.

Final Pot: 15.25 BB
Main Pot: 6.25 BB, between MP1, CO and Hero.
Pot 2: 9 BB, between CO and Hero.

Bonus -- Guess who the CO is. [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

Piiop · #2 09-22-2004, 03:06 AM

QJo is a pretty poor hand and he's in the worst position. However, MP1 is almost all-in. If the CO is a weak/poor player it would be a good raise. I don't think I've ever raised QJo from the BB.

I think his postflop play is too aggressive. The flop is a pretty scary one for people without a good piece of it and his bet gets raised. I would think this would mean that 2nd pair 2nd kicker is no good, however he does have a good club draw. I think the best line to take here would be to check-call, check-call unless the 4th club comes up then check-raise.

If he knows the CO would raise the A [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] then I guess the 3-bet is not too bad, except that just goes out the window on the river. I think that most of the hands the CO would raise here have the Hero beaten so the 3-bet is excessive.

If the Hero knows the CO would only raise the flop with a K or better is bad, then his 3-bet is bad. He won't make a better hand fold and he's just costing himself more if he's behind. His raise isn't for value because there are only 2 other people in the pot and 1 of them will be all in after 1 SB.

If the CO is you, I don't like your river raise. You don't have the A [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] or you would've capped it. So, you must have the T [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] or lower. After that much action so far and the 4th club lands and he still bets into you, I don't think raising with the 3rd nuts or lower is a great idea.

WillMagic · #3 09-22-2004, 03:50 AM

Preflop raise SUCKS.

Flop 3-bet SUCKS.

River 3-bet is BEYOND AWFUL.

This is, of course, You are the cutoff and a complete maniac...in which case the plays can be justified.

AdamL · #4 09-22-2004, 04:29 AM

Yup, I'm the CO. For some reason my version of it wouldn't come in the hand history and the emailed versions are the only ones the converter takes right now, so I had him email me his.

I (CO) had K [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]T [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] -- good hand reading Piiop.

I raised the river because I thought he had a better king than me when he 3-bet the flop. I didn't fear a strong flush. When he 3-bet I believed he had a flush and just called. Is that line ok?

As for his play --

I did think his preflop raise was poor, but I was surprised to learn that his flop play is too aggressive here.

I don't think he needs to credit me for a made flush just yet. He knows I'm a solid player (with room to improve of course) and when I raise his flop bet he probably put me on a marginal king, given my limp preflop and flop raise.

He might have as many as 14 outs to a hand that beats mine. (9 clubs, 3 Jacks, and 2 Queens.) That makes him about 2 to 1 to improve on the turn. Not bad. But you're right, a king isn't folding here.

I guess without another player in the pot it doesn't look so hot after all, since putting me on a king means I won't fold anyhow. I never thought about that...

If there was another player (without them being all-in) would his aggression be ok in that situation? Was it only bad (flop onward) because of the heads-up situation?

With another player or two in the hand I don't think being passive here would have been good for him. Is that correct?

DavidC · #5 09-22-2004, 11:45 AM

I was the "hero" in this hand, though I got pretty lucky with the club landing, compared to the amount of money that I put in the pot.

I didn't realize I had so many outs, which would have made calling a good thing. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Adam, if you didn't have a club, would you have called the river if I bet it?

I think my 3-bet on the river was good, because a good player would be obliged to call that without the nuts, given the size of the pot.

(With this in mind, you probably would have called with the K if I bet a blank river.)

--Dave.

btspider · #6 09-22-2004, 11:56 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I (CO) had K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

raise or fold preflop. raise unless MP1 is a rock.

don't raise the river, he likely has big cards given his PF raise.

crockett · #7 09-22-2004, 12:15 PM

Wow!

Pre-Flop: Terrible! Don’t do it. And learn to consistently fold this hand from early position if your playing it now. As you move up this hand really looses value. In the micro’s it’s fine to limp with…unless it’s played like it was in this situation.

Flop: Why? Especially if you knew that CO was another 2+2er! You know he/she plays premium cards and they just raised your junk. Chip spewing madness.

Turn: Still hoping for your flush….but on the bright side you know he doesn’t have the made flush but he definitely still has something because you didn’t scare him out of the hand.

River: Bingo! You might win the hand…all those chips you put into the pot just might hold up. Check/call.

[ QUOTE ]
I think my 3-bet on the river was good, because a good player would be obliged to call that without the nuts, given the size of the pot.

[/ QUOTE ]

And….he would be obliged to RERAISE you with the nuts!!! Ac is definitely seeing the river here and you can’t rule that out. Poor raise.

PokerBob · #8 09-22-2004, 12:27 PM

I just call the river raise.

PokerBob · #9 09-22-2004, 12:34 PM

The best options PF for you in the CO with one limper are, from best to worst: 1) Muck 2)Raise 3)Call. IMO if you're gonna play it, raise it to drive away the blinds and take control. Many times at 1/2 you can raise PF and bet/raise the flop and take it down right there. You played this hand like a LAG.

Piiop · #10 09-22-2004, 03:11 PM

I don't think he needs to credit me for a made flush just yet....and when I raise his flop bet he probably put me on a marginal king, given my limp preflop and flop raise.
but I was surprised to learn that his flop play is too aggressive here.

You're right about the first part. With what hands do you raise this flop? Only hands that have him beat, right? Even with something like AcTx, you're a favorite. His hand and draw make it worth staying in, but the aggression is too much. That's why I think it was too aggressive. Betting out is correct, but I would just call the raise.

If there was another player (without them being all-in) would his aggression be ok in that situation? Was it only bad (flop onward) because of the heads-up situation?

This really depends on the situation. With more people in the pot, you could say another flop raise would be for the "value" of the flush draw, if he was able to trap the other opponents for more bets. But with more people you'd also have to worry about the A [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].

What made his play too aggressive was not just that it was heads-up, but the previous action in the hand. When a solid player raises your bet after a preflop raise on a scary board, 2nd pair 2nd kicker isn't going to be ahead very often.

Also, I would raise KTo in your position. Since the MP player is almost all-in and limped in, it's likely he has a poor hand and is a poor player. This would be a good situation to isolate that player, even with a marginal hand. Normally, I would fold KTo anywhere unless I am open raising from the CO or button.