Bowing down to Fossilman

[Zinzan]

Those of you who think 2+2ers are kissing Raymer's ass just because he's "one of us" should review threads here and on rgp. Greg has earned our respect, not just for winning the WSOP, but also in his contributions to many poker conversations. Many here have also seen Greg play in person. His poker skills are undeniable, and big wins were/are clearly going to come his way.

If you review these boards, you'll find that "we" don't always agree with Fossilman (or any other 2+2er)... you'll find many spirited debates about his strategies. But even in disagreement, most here find Greg's strategies well thought out, and his play top notch. He seldom makes lazy mistakes.

Are we harder on other champions than we are on Greg? Probably. But not just because he's 2+2; but because he's a valuable contributor to 2+2, a solid player, and a likeable champion.

-Z

BTW, Greg has continued to contribute here AFTER his big win. Contributions from Greg, Annie, Paul, Barry, etc. are incredibly valuable to us--why would we want to run any of them off?

[jwvdcw]

I agree with you in that I can't blame you for favoring Greg. After all, hes a good friend of this board. However, when evaluating the champion's talent level, we should try to be objective, which you even admit that you aren't in saying "Are we harder on other champions than we are on Greg? Probably."

[pilamsolo]

I really like what you have to say here. Although we may blast each other over how this or that hand should have been played, it's always nice to see a 2+2er doing well (unless we're playing heads up, of course).

I only wish that we would hear from the pros in some of the other forums. I understand that most of them are busy with their own lives and such, but it's unfortunate that we only hear from Paul Phillips or Barry Greenstein when they're being attacked in this or the News and Gossip forum. Honestly, I think there's more BS spouted in this forum than in all the Hold 'em forums combined.

Speaking as someone who joined 2+2 to improve their game, I would be thrilled to see a hand posted from one of Barry Greenstein's regular games, or hear if Paul Phillips would have played a hand differently that cost me $500.

There's so many different ways to win at poker, why would we want to chase any potential members away?

-Solo

[Zinzan]

[ QUOTE ]
...when evaluating the champion's talent level, we should try to be objective, which you even admit that you aren't in saying "Are we harder on other champions than we are on Greg? Probably."

[/ QUOTE ]

That's not quite right--when David Williams makes a questionable play, "we" might ask "what the hell was he doing?" We don't expect to hear from David, so we argue the hand amongst ourselves (and yes, it can get pretty ugly).

When Greg makes a questionable play, we already have some understanding of his aggressive nature and can figure out what he was doing, even if we wouldn't play it that way. Or we ask, "Hey Greg, on that one hand... what were you thinking? Why did you..." and there's a good chance he'll give us a well thought-out answer, and we'll say, "Oh. Thanks." Even if we would play it differently. What else can/should we do--ask him what he was thinking, read his answer, and then say, "you're a dumbass!"?

When watching Gus Hansen (keep in mind I've never commented on any of these Gus Hansen threads), "we" can't help but watch and think, "this guy's nuts! this guy's incredibly lucky! this guy..." Well, he is obviously very successful, but there's no way most of us can understand his play. And he'll never explain it to us. So we laugh, and find his play incredible, and bitch about him being lucky. :/

Anyway, I don't really think we're in disagreement. Greg deserves our respect. Hansen, Moneymaker, and Arieh do, too--they shouldn't be insulted because they're "outsiders". Sure, their play should be examined and discussed, but the personal insults are an unfortunate side of open internet forums.

-Z