Should I value 3 -bet?

[TheDelChop]

Sitting at a 10-20 at Foxwoods on Saturday night. Game is great, many wealthy older men who appear to simply want to play with no regard for real strategy, and as a result I am making a killing. Dealt 10-9s one off the button with 5 limpers in front of me. I consider raising, but the button seems to have it out for me and frequently three bets my raises seemingly out of spite, so I decide that I don't want most of the table folding to two bets and just call. Sure enough the button raises, the SB folds and all of the rest of the table calls the one more bet (as they should). It comes back to me, should I consider raising here to really build a pot? I mean if I flop nothing I can get away with folding but if I flop a four flush or an OESD I could win a huge pot. Any thoughts on the correct play here? What if I think the button will cap? Is it wrong then?

[Clarkmeister]

"I mean if I flop nothing I can get away with folding but if I flop a four flush or an OESD I could win a huge pot. "

Well, if it's a bigger pot, you would have to *really* flop nothing to correctly get away from it. Secondly, don't you think that you are *already* going to win a big pot if you hit?

[elindauer]

Hi DelChop,

You should probably just call, for a couple reasons. First, you're already talking about getting away from your hand on the flop, which raises the concern that, maybe, you don't understand how little you have to have to continue in such a huge pot.

Second, it sounds like the game you're in is pretty loose and passive. I find that most games "find a rhythym" in the preflop betting, and if you go limp-3-betting you're going to upset that rhythym. When somebody gets trapped for 4-bets preflop, they may be inclined to (correctly) fold a hand they would have (incorrectly) limped with, not to mention encouraging the table to become much more aggressive.

You want five limpers to you in late position. When the game is played this way it's oh so profitable for you. Don't screw it up.

my 2 cents.
Eric

[TheDelChop]

Appreciate all the feed back, the point about rhythm of the game is very true, I dont want to upset the nice passive loose nature of the game. I understand that if I flop some sort of hand that I am getting great odds to draw to second pair/gutshot straights/trips, I just meant that often when you have two big suited cards that miss like A-Q or A-K there is more tendency to hang around with no draws but overcards. Also, the idea of having 6 or 7 people in for two bets is great, I should'nt be greedy. I guess I was just wondering if on a theoretical level this is a +EV play.

[DonT77]

From a strickly value perspective - probably yes.

9Ts holds up pretty well against the typical holdings in a loose passive game:

http://twodimes.net/h/?z=655456
Holdem Hi: 658008 enumerated boards
cards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EV
Ts 9s 128428 19.52 529199 80.42 381 0.06 0.195
Ad 8h 98504 14.97 559123 84.97 381 0.06 0.150
Js Kh 112669 17.12 544958 82.82 381 0.06 0.171
Qc 7c 124051 18.85 533576 81.09 381 0.06 0.189
5d 4d 102308 15.55 555319 84.39 381 0.06 0.156
3c 3h 91667 13.93 565960 86.01 381 0.06 0.139

A surprise to me was how well Q7s - a hand that can not make a straight with both cards performed. Also, I'm a little bit surprised how poorly A8o performs even without another Ace in an opponent's hand.

[Kaz The Original]

Do you even doubt it? Q7 is the COMPUTER HAND.

[Dizoich]

I have played the 10-20 foxwoods several times, usually on friday and saturday nights and the answer to your question is a definite YES .
You have a wonderful suited connector. I have and will continue to three bet in that position with T-8 or even 9-7 suited when that many people are in for two bets. When you are at a loose passive table such as a weekend 10-20 foxwoods, no one is folding once they have two bets in pre-flop... even when it gets capped by the button (which really isn't that bad for you if it happens).
Your T-9 suited is the perfect type of hand to do this with. If you do hit and win a tremendous pot, people will be cautious of your play in the future thinking you are tricky and will pay you off even more than they likely were. The only advice is that if you do show down your hand, you cannot bluff or even semi bluff on the turn for at least another hour and a half... which isn't necvessarily bad, because the reason you can't do it is because everyone will be trying to trip you up thinking you are bluffing. People will call you down with mid pair -any kicker, even when you raise them on the turn andf they KNOW they are losing.

And if you missed the flop and didn't show down the T-9, you simply fold, and everyone puts you on the best hand that didn't hit that particular flop... Usually AK or a high PP.

YOU MUST THREE BET THAT HAND PRE-FLOP UNDER THOSE CONDITIONS.

[haakee]

I'd argue that it matters very little whether you call or 3-bet here.

[steveyz]

I think 3-bet is fine. Even if button caps, everyone will likely call since they are already in for 2 sbs.

[steveyz]

being suited in very important under those game conditioned. I'm not surprised at all that Q7s is better than A8o. I wouldn't even like ATo/AJo in that situation.