Fold preflop?

fyodor · #1 08-30-2004, 10:35 AM

UTG is very loose and sees +50% of the flops. I figured with the poster he would raise with a lot of hands here. I have been told I should have folded. Was I crazy to call?

Party Poker 5/10 Hold'em (6 max, 5 handed) converter

Preflop: SSH Hero is SB with A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]. MP posts a blind of $5.
UTG raises, MP (poster) calls, Button folds, SSH Hero calls, BB folds.

Flop: (7 SB) 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (3 players)
SSH Hero checks, UTG bets, MP calls, SSH Hero calls.

Turn: (5 BB) 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (3 players)
SSH Hero checks, UTG bets, MP calls, SSH Hero calls.

River: (8 BB) 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (3 players)
SSH Hero checks, UTG bets, MP calls, SSH Hero raises, UTG calls, MP folds.

Final Pot: 13 BB

Results in white below: 
SSH Hero shows Ad 8d (flush, ace high).
UTG shows Jc Js (two pair, jacks and twos).
Outcome: SSH Hero wins 13 BB.

Zele · #2 08-30-2004, 10:41 AM

Yes.

And why are you check-calling the flop?

chio · #3 08-30-2004, 10:45 AM

yes i agree the preflop call is not as terrible as a check-call on the flop

imitation · #4 08-30-2004, 10:46 AM

I don't mind the preflop call. On the flop I lead out, call a raise the rest of the hand plays itself.

fyodor · #5 08-30-2004, 11:10 AM

[ QUOTE ]
And why are you check-calling the flop?

[/ QUOTE ]

If you mean as opposed to check folding it is because I was getting 9:1 with an overcard and the backdoor nut flush. If he has a bigger Ace then I have the 3 outs with my kicker instead. I figured myself for 4.5 outs which is plenty given the pot odds.

chio · #6 08-30-2004, 11:25 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
And why are you check-calling the flop?

[/ QUOTE ]

If you mean as opposed to check folding it is because I was getting 9:1 with an overcard and the backdoor nut flush. If he has a bigger Ace then I have the 3 outs with my kicker instead. I figured myself for 4.5 outs which is plenty given the pot odds.

[/ QUOTE ]

if you count 4.5 outs then you need 10.5-1 to call. you aren't even getting that. PLUS the way you counted your backdoor outs, you assumed seeing the river for free, which obviously isn't going to happen. fold.

the presence of a third player could put you in even worse shape if he has a 2 or something like 9T and the preflop raiser has AK

naphand · #7 08-30-2004, 11:26 AM

Come on...plenty of outs?

You are staring at an A that is very likely dominated, hoping to catch your abysmal kicker or a run-run flush on a paired board. You have very little by way of implied odds; if opponent has a PP and an A falls, if you are ahead he slows down, if opponent has a better A you are f****d. Your only realistic hope is a run-run flush, and that is not a realistic hope.

Two overcards and a backdoor, OK. Weak A, PF raise, the worst kicker possible (given the paired 2's) you are "flying by the seat of your pants" on that flop. If I see someone make a play like this against me, they get the fish icon in PokerTracker. Convince me otherwise.

imitation · #8 08-30-2004, 11:33 AM

Hold up aren't we confusing that his read was that UTG was raising light? Maybe i'm reading too much into that, so this is a check/fold for everyone? My instinct was to bet the flop given the read but ehh...

fyodor · #9 08-30-2004, 11:50 AM

Well this is why I asked. Consensus is I played like a fish.

"if you count 4.5 outs then you need 10.5-1 to call."

There were still 2 cards to come not 1. So I just need something like 5:1

Anyhow my reasoning (flawed though it seems to be) was that UTG could be raising with a lot of hands here - I know with a poster I do and the UTG is way looser than me. Posters complete with a lot of hands as well. There are only 3 nines and 2 twos out there so odds are the flop missed everyone. I may have as many as 6 outs plus my backdoor flush which I count as 1.5 If someone has a bigger Ace my 3 eight outs still count. If they have a pp bigger than my eight then my Ace outs count. I don't play poker thinking all my outs are counterfeited. I would be folding every freaking hand.

Assuming even 3 outs with 2 cards to come I only need 7:1 without any implied odds. I'm getting 9:1. If I don't improve on the turn I am gone of course.

chio · #10 08-30-2004, 11:55 AM

my point was specifically that checking and calling sucked, not that you couldn't continue

if UTG is raising "very light", then bet out the flop and see what happens