Monster Pot with TT

MarkD · #1 07-20-2004, 02:45 PM

I played this hand last night and felt like I was floundering around. I was attempting to apply the concept, "Do whatever you can to increase your chances of winning the pot." With that in mind I was trying to get people to fold. Once I got that in my head I played in a manner to try and accomplish this but I think I just screwed the hand up.

I have a feeling that even though this was a monster pot, that there is a much better way to play the hand and that's important to me.

Party Poker 15/30 Hold'em (9 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
1 fold, UTG+1 raises, 1 fold, Hero 3-bets, MP3 caps, CO calls, Button calls, SB calls, 1 fold, UTG+1 calls, Hero calls.

Flop: (25 SB) 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (6 players)
SB checks, UTG+1 checks, Hero bets, MP3 raises, CO calls, Button calls, SB calls, UTG+1 calls, Hero calls.

Turn: (18.50 BB) 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (6 players)
SB checks, UTG+1 checks, Hero bets, MP3 calls, CO raises, Button calls, SB folds, UTG+1 calls, Hero calls, MP3 calls.

River: (28.50 BB) 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (5 players)
UTG+1 checks, Hero bets, MP3 folds, CO calls, Button folds, UTG+1 calls.

Final Pot: 31.50 BB
Main Pot: 31.50 BB, between UTG+1, Hero and CO.

stoxtrader · #2 07-20-2004, 03:10 PM

given the preflop action you could very well be against JJ/QQ/KK/AA and one or two AKs/AKo thrown in, I would guess that the K or A of spades is probably also represented.

I think you have to cap the flop, It's very very likely you have the best hand, and while there are certainly draws out vs you, you are also getting equity from people drawing to 0 outs (AK), and 2 outs QQ-AA. JJ has 10 outs, and a higher spade has 9 outs. If someone has a made flush you have 7 outs on the turn and 10 on the river.

So I would cap the flop and the turn here.

MrGo · #3 07-20-2004, 03:15 PM

How has UTG+1 playing? Is he tight? If so, I'd give him respect for his raise and flat call instead of 3-bet.

I don't really understand your bet/call mode on the flop and the turn. There are 4 players behind MP3 who ALL CALLED. 3-bet this flop everytime. If one of the limpers has a small flush, you still have 7 outs on the flop and 10 on the turn to make your hand the best.

MrGo · #4 07-20-2004, 03:17 PM

[ QUOTE ]
given the preflop action you could very well be against JJ/QQ/KK/AA and one or two AKs/AKo thrown in, I would guess that the K or A of spades is probably also represented.

I think you have to cap the flop, It's very very likely you have the best hand, and while there are certainly draws out vs you, you are also getting equity from people drawing to 0 outs (AK), and 2 outs QQ-AA. JJ has 10 outs, and a higher spade has 9 outs. If someone has a made flush you have 7 outs on the turn and 10 on the river.

So I would cap the flop and the turn here.

[/ QUOTE ]

We posted at the same time...and we basically said the same thing. lol =)

MarkD · #5 07-20-2004, 03:20 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I don't really understand your bet/call mode on the flop and the turn.

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On the flop I bet hoping that I would get raised immediately as I did and that a lot of people would fold as they did not which is why I just called - I wanted to try that again on the turn. I did a stop and go here hoping that I would get immediately raised again on the turn.

This is why I posted my thought process in the initial post, to explain my play. I'm certainly not saying it's right and I said i thought I played it poorly, I'm just expressing my thought process at the moment the hand was played.

Edit: Also, on teh turn when I raised by the second player I assumed that I was beat by a flush or straight and wanted to show down cheaply. I certainly didn't see the value in capping the turn.

[ QUOTE ]
How has UTG+1 playing? Is he tight? If so, I'd give him respect for his raise and flat call instead of 3-bet.

[/ QUOTE ]

I didn't have a very good read, but he seemed respectable. I did not think his EP raise was junk. I 3-bet here pretty much all of the time here with TT.

MarkD · #6 07-20-2004, 04:04 PM

So this is the wrong spot to apply this concept. I must admit, applying the "do everything you can to increase your chances of winning the pot when the pot is large" is a concept I've never understood how to apply in practice. This hand is obviously case in point.

Nate tha' Great · #7 07-20-2004, 05:29 PM

[ QUOTE ]
On the flop I bet hoping that I would get raised immediately as I did and that a lot of people would fold as they did not which is why I just called - I wanted to try that again on the turn. I did a stop and go here hoping that I would get immediately raised again on the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

By the time it gets back around to you, the pot is so large that it's pretty unlikely that someone who otherwise would have folded will now call because the pot is even larger, so you strap on your seatbelt and go ahead and raise for value ... you're giving up a *lot* of value by not getting more bets in here.

MarkD · #8 07-20-2004, 05:33 PM

This is exactly why I posted the hand. Now 3 people have echoed the same sentiment.

I totally misapplied a concept in this hand and cost myself a lot of EV in the process and I don't feel good about it. I still don't think capping the turn on this scary board is generally the correct strategy, but I do think I should have capped the flop.

I was very happy to win this pot as I needed it, but it took a matter of microseconds before I was mad about the way it went down.

DcifrThs · #9 07-20-2004, 06:15 PM

first off, i never go into a session thinking, "im looking to apply X concept." i know i USED to go in with that mentality but it always lead me to F-ing it all up anyway. its better to go into a session thinking, "im gunna destroy this game" and just play your best. if the concept comes up, review the hand and adjust!

you gave up a LOT on this hand, upwards of 5bbs. thats a lot of money to just toss out the window. you gave up 1 bb on the river, a bunch on the flop and even more on the turn. thats ludacris. AcKx is probably out there, AxKc could be out there as well and you want to charge them the maximum possible amount to hit the club. get the freakin money in there NOW!

-Barron

MarkD · #10 07-20-2004, 06:27 PM

How did I give up 1BB on the river?

[ QUOTE ]
first off, i never go into a session thinking, "im looking to apply X concept."

[/ QUOTE ]

Also, I never said I went into the session thinking this. When the pot became monstrous pre-flop is when it first entered my mind.

[ QUOTE ]
you gave up a LOT on this hand, upwards of 5bbs. thats a lot of money to just toss out the window. you gave up 1 bb on the river, a bunch on the flop and even more on the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

You state this without offering any suggestion as to how to actually play the hand. Sorry, I'm just not a fan of blanket statements that don't really contribute anything. Exactly how many bets should I go on the turn here? What is CO cold calling on the flop that he now decides to unleash with on the turn. That betting pattern usually means flush in my experience.

I respect your advice on this forum but this time the post just strikes me as condescending without substance. Not sure how else to take it.